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Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale

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Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:21
Okay, my turn to bug you. I think this one might be a bit more complicated than the average "which school" thread, so I hope it doesn't bore you.

I have two admits - one from Yale with a 25% scholarship graduating in 2011 and one for Kellogg's one-year (1Y) program that starts in late June and ends in June 2010.

FYI, I applied to the 1Y program to minimize cost and time, the time issue mostly being that my girlfriend of 5 years cannot move with me and will stay in Boston. I have an undergrad business degree, so I meet the requirements for the 1Y program.

Background info: I have worked at one company for my entire career, a tiny biotech company where I have essentially been in a management rotation program in that I've had a lot of different, but significant, responsibilities. My post-MBA goal is to join a big biotech company (think Genzyme, Genentech, etc.) or something else in the drug development field working in general management, strategic planning and/or corporate development (consulting and VC are also of interest, yet less feasible). Long-term I would like to work at small biotech companies, possibly starting my own with technologies developed by my scientist friends.

Here are the pros and cons I have identified so far:

YALE
Pros:
- Cachet with laymen (Yale)
- Cool curriculum
- Small class size
- Enter workforce later (2011)
- Good opportunities in social enterprise/non-profit/development, which my alternate career of interest
- Generally a simpler, more convenient "transition" from my current situation
- Hanging out at ninkorn's swank apartment

Cons:
- Almost non-existent biotech/pharma recruiting (not sure if this is due to a lack of student interest)
- Much less respected MBA program (ugly duckling of Yale University)
- 2 years of trying to maintain a long-distance relationship
- Small alumni network
- Let's face it: New Haven (bad city, but geographically convenient)

KELLOGG
Pros:
- Highly respected/ranked overall
- Very strong biotech/pharma program
- Almost 100% electives
- Tight-knit 1Y class within a big overall alumni network
- Slightly less expensive (assuming no non-debt financial aid received from Kellogg)
- Best class I attended during all B school visits
- Only 1 year of trying to maintain a long-distance relationship

Cons:
- Less time to enjoy the overall B school experience
- Enter workforce earlier (2010)
- Less time to gain leadership positions in clubs
- Surrounded only by 1Y consultants going back to M/B/B? (not sure)
- Looked upon less favorably by recruiters than 2Y program? (not sure)
- No internship opportunity
- Have to start earlier (June vs. September)
- Strong competition in biotech/pharma recruiting

What say you? Thanks!
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 11:51
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I'm not going to vote for one or the other, I'll just mention a few points:

1. New Haven is within driving distance to Boston (under 3 hrs). You might be at Yale for longer, but you'll be able to see the ol' lady a lot more often. You could easily spend every other weekend together if you wanted to.

2. School ranking means a lot less in biotech/pharma than it does in finance or consulting. I had a friend who finished up at Yale a couple years ago and had no problem getting interviews with companies. Most pharma/biotech recruiters would go like this :| if you asked them to name an M7 school. In fact, my friend said the Yale's Ivy League name actually pulls a lot of weight. (going back to bostonsparky's comments)

3. The lack of an internship is a real kicker. Lets say you want to stay in pharma/biotech. If you went to Yale you could do an internship in <insert cool industry>, then go back to biotech. In fact a Tuck alumni suggested I do just that. "Expand your horizons" and all that jazz. You could do a summer internship in non-profit for example.

4. In terms of competition for biotech jobs, you already have a huge advantage there. You've got first-hand experience in a start-up doing business development. How many people are in that situation? I would guess VERY few. That plays both ways though. It means at Kellogg you don't really have to worry about your competition. However, at Yale, it also means you won't have to worry about the lack of on-campus recruiting. It's not like you came from a forestry background and now you want to move into health care.

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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 19:46
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isa wrote:
What is the vibe like in the 1yr program at Kellogg? Is the student body fairly close-knit? Are they fairly set apart from the 2yr program? (I think they have a 1yr program representative in the KSA - maybe worth reaching out to him/her?)?

The 1Y's are very tight knit, they spend all summer pretty much only with each other around. They integrate well with the rest of the community come fall but being together all summer definitely brings them together. I know plenty of 1Ys also do KWEST and things like that. They also do have representatives on all the different KSA boards along with reps on some other boards.

isa wrote:
What's the alumni network for 1yr students at Kellogg like? Do they have access to the same network as the 2yr program students? ?

The alumni network is totally open to all, I can see everyone who has ever been to Kellogg (2Y, 1Y, MMM, PT, EMBA, and even executive certificate programs). In someways the 1Y have an advantage of not only having the fulltime MBA degree but the super tight knit 1Y community.

As for sponsored students vs non sponsored and the benefits of internship here are my opinions. 1Y's are definitely sponsored at a higher rate than the regular 1Y program. BCG strongly favors the 1Y, McKinsey and Bain favor the 2Y though. Others who are continuing on the same path can sometimes manage to secure sponsorships too. The majority of 1Y's definitely arent sponsored though but some do have the option of returning to their previous employer even if they arent sponsored.

Internship, well the honest answer is that it has minimal value if you are continuing on the same functional and industry path. If you wanted to change one or the other or both, then an internship is very important...however if you are just continuing along then its not nearly as big of a need. I think this year was the worst it could be for FT recruiting, our class is already going to be more diversely dispersed than previous classes. Companies reduced their numbers this year and some had no additional spots beyond interns but they drastically reduced interns so now they will have open spots again going forward. Honestly with 3+ years of experience in the industry you will have an advantage recruiting over people who have 3 months doing an internship.

As for the recommendation of doing an internship in something else just to explore that is a terrible recommendation these days. People giving that advice are living in the past. It definitely was popular in previous years and a different job market but the advice we got this year was do not even consider that if you have options in your long term goal area. First of all your success getting internships is good in areas your background plays well and not so good with drastic changes. Companies will question why your internship wasnt in the same industry or function that you want full time. Saying you just wanted to see what else was out there isnt going to be a good answer, and saying that you didnt enjoy it as much will make them wonder why you wanted to try something else instead. I know some people who thought about doing this, but the CMC said they would risk hurting their chances fulltime. You always want to intern at a company that you would want to work at fulltime.

I say the money you save doing the 1Y, the quicker return to the working world, and the large advantage of Kellogg in your desired industry make it a no brainer. Healthcare internship recruiting held up very well this year, I think it is a good indication of what fulltime will be like next year. I am not knocking Yale or their brand but in healthcare Wharton and Kellogg are the two most recognized brands. Remember you dont care what the lay person thinks about the name of your school...you care about recruiters think. Judging by the list of HC that recruits here I dont think that any school outside of Wharton (and maybe trailing fairly closely Duke) can match the opportunities coming out of Kellogg in the industry.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:41
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rca215 wrote:

Cons:
- Less time to enjoy the overall B school experience
- Enter workforce earlier (2010)
- Less time to gain leadership positions in clubs
- Surrounded only by 1Y consultants going back to M/B/B? (not sure)
- Looked upon less favorably by recruiters than 2Y program? (not sure)
- No internship opportunity
- Have to start earlier (June vs. September)
- Strong competition in biotech/pharma recruiting

What say you? Thanks!


Since I'm obviously biased as well - I'll try to address these Cons hehe. 1) There are a decent amount of 1Ys that are M/B/B, but you'd be surprised by the diversity within the 1Y class, 2) 1Y is definitely not at a disadvantage for recruiting to the 2Y program, 3) People have been getting biotech/pharma jobs and internships this year like whoa. I have yet to meet someone who sought out biotech/pharma and did not get an offer. It has by far, been the most successful job path in this economy at Kellogg (both for interns and full time)
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 13:23
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As someone who just landed a Biotech Business Development job, I can say that Biz Dev is far and away the hardest function to get into. If there was a rankings sensitivity it would be BD, finance, Marketing and then supply chain management. And I just interviewed with 9 different companies and landed one pharma BD job, one biotech BD job, 2 pharma marketing jobs, and a life sciences VC job.

I recently attended an event for all incoming interns for the biotech business development positions. There were 5 kelloggs, 3 whartons, 2 columbias, and moi, the lonely UNC guy, but this company did not recruit on campus and I networked to get the position. That being said, I would choose Kellogg over Yale in your case. I have been to several healthcare type intern invitationals(on site second round interviews) and met many kelloggs but no Yalies BUT, I dont know anything about the 1 year program and if you have access to the same recruiters, resources, and "general transformational experience" that the 2 year MBA provides.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 12 Mar 2009, 04:49
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I am kind of amazed that the voting is so close for this. Even though I voted for Yale I assumed it would be a Kellogg run-away. The closeness of the vote must not help you very much. Also take into consideration that the participation in this thread is saturated with students of Kellogg, acceptees to Kellogg, and applicants to Kellogg.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 12 Mar 2009, 07:07
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Raabend wrote:
I am kind of amazed that the voting is so close for this. Even though I voted for Yale I assumed it would be a Kellogg run-away. The closeness of the vote must not help you very much. Also take into consideration that the participation in this thread is saturated with students of Kellogg, acceptees to Kellogg, and applicants to Kellogg.

I think the reason it is so close are most people here are career/industry switchers so they see an internship as vital. So they are putting their personal view on it without realizing RCA does not need an internship at all if he already has been working in that industry. Basically the 1Y is waiving out of most of the core and only taking electives, and skipping a summer internship. Also, even though Kellogg is heavily represented here I think most people have been pretty unbiased with the information.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:33
I'm biased but IMO Kellogg > Yale
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:37
Explanations for votes appreciated, to help me in my thought process (I know yours already Jerz)!
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:37
Jerz wrote:
I'm biased but IMO Kellogg > Yale


I agree. RCA is not a career switcher and he is NYU Stern undergrad. NYU Stern undergrads don't need 2 year MBA program for success. :-D

Also, he wants to stay in bio-tech, which Kellogg might be better for....

In my opinion, RCA will be in similar situation looking for pharma jobs in Evanston in 2010 or in New Haven in 2011.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:39
This thread should just be renamed 'The nink vs Jerz cagematch'
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:42
bostonsparky wrote:
This thread should just be renamed 'The nink vs Jerz cagematch'



But I am agreeing with him.... :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:43
Steel wrote:
Since I'm obviously biased as well - I'll try to address these Cons hehe. 1) There are a decent amount of 1Ys that are M/B/B, but you'd be surprised by the diversity within the 1Y class, 2) 1Y is definitely not at a disadvantage for recruiting to the 2Y program, 3) People have been getting biotech/pharma jobs and internships this year like whoa. I have yet to meet someone who sought out biotech/pharma and did not get an offer. It has by far, been the most successful job path in this economy at Kellogg (both for interns and full time)

I was hoping someone with more Kellogg insight would address those uncertainties, so thanks for that.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 10:51
nink wrote:
bostonsparky wrote:
This thread should just be renamed 'The nink vs Jerz cagematch'



But I am agreeing with him.... :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


Indeed, someone actually advising someone based on what is best for the advisee rather than shamelessly promoting their own school. That would never fly on BW.

But since someone should take the Yale side (I'm definitely not an expert on the 2 schools) , something I would definitely consider would be the Yale brand vs the Kellogg brand in New England (where I assume you want to keep working after Bschool rca, correct me if Im wrong). I would think Yale has a slight edge in that area vs Kellogg. Not even so much amongst fellow MBAs but if you stay in biotech you'll be working alongside a lot of scientists/non business people who don't have the USNews/BW rankings memorized by heart. Hopefully they will at least know that Northwestern isn't that other team in the Beanpot besides Harvard/BC/BU.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 11:11
bostonsparky wrote:
But since someone should take the Yale side (I'm definitely not an expert on the 2 schools) , something I would definitely consider would be the Yale brand vs the Kellogg brand in New England (where I assume you want to keep working after Bschool rca, correct me if Im wrong). I would think Yale has a slight edge in that area vs Kellogg. Not even so much amongst fellow MBAs but if you stay in biotech you'll be working alongside a lot of scientists/non business people who don't have the USNews/BW rankings memorized by heart. Hopefully they will at least know that Northwestern isn't that other team in the Beanpot besides Harvard/BC/BU.

This is definitely something that I have considered, but in general I just think it's less regional (well, some Northeastern-related confusion is bound to happen :( :( ), and more related to people who know B schools and people who don't.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 11:15
And for the Kellogg side, I noticed you cited Yale's opportunities in social enterprise/non-profit/development. Kellogg is also very strong in that area as well. SEEK Program, Huge/diverse Net Impact chapter, Kellogg Corps, cool environment-related clubs if you're into that.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 11:19
I think you would have much more fun at the Yale 2 year. Personally, if I had to choose between two great programs, the 2 year thing would sway me. If it were Kellogg 2 year thats a different story.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 11:31
Yale is a fantastic program, but I'm sorry. It has to be Kellogg (and not just because it is where I will be going).

This is an MBA and the program at Kellogg is constantly recognized as one of the best in the world. Yale is fantastic, but as far as MBA's goes, its a step behind Kellogg. If this was a JD or almost any other degree, I would definitely say go with Yale.
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 11:59
refurb wrote:
2. School ranking means a lot less in biotech/pharma than it does in finance or consulting. I had a friend who finished up at Yale a couple years ago and had no problem getting interviews with companies. Most pharma/biotech recruiters would go like this :| if you asked them to name an M7 school. In fact, my friend said the Yale's Ivy League name actually pulls a lot of weight. (going back to bostonsparky's comments


Maybe, maybe not....

Baxter, Genzyme, Genentech, Johnson & Johnson, B&D, Merck, Abbott, Amgen, Boston Scientific, Eli Lilly, Novartis, and Pfizer (among other smaller firms) all recruited on-campus for interns and full-time this year at Kellogg. I guarantee all the recruiters from those firms know the value of a Kellogg (otherwise they wouldn't come to Kellogg year in year out).
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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale [#permalink] New post 11 Mar 2009, 12:42
Steel wrote:
Maybe, maybe not....

Baxter, Genzyme, Genentech, Johnson & Johnson, B&D, Merck, Abbott, Amgen, Boston Scientific, Eli Lilly, Novartis, and Pfizer (among other smaller firms) all recruited on-campus for interns and full-time this year at Kellogg. I guarantee all the recruiters from those firms know the value of a Kellogg (otherwise they wouldn't come to Kellogg year in year out).


I'm not saying that the companies don't know who the good schools are, they do, but trust me, they don't think "Well, Kellogg is consistently ranked in the top 10, while Yale has never broken into the top 10, so lets just shred the Yale resumes."

I talked with two people, one at in marketing at big pharma company and one in business development at mid-size biotech and both told me there would be no difference between attending Duke or Tuck. That's not something rankings alone would suggest.

Take a look where Pfizer recruits their MBAs from:

Quote:
* Chicago University Graduate School of Business
* Columbia University Graduate School of Business
* Harvard Business School
* Indiana University (Kelley)
* University of Minnesota (Carlson)
* Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Sloan)
* Northwestern University (Kellogg)
* New York University (Stern)
* Pennsylvania State University (Smeal)
* University Pennsylanvia (Wharton)
* University of Virginia (Darden)


Where a pharma/biotech company recruits from often has more to do with alumni contacts than any perceived difference in ranking. That's why Pfizer recruits at UMinn and Indiana (Pfizer had a big mid-west presence at one time). Who knows why they recruit at Penn State, probably some alumni offered to recruit there.

However, it often varies within business function too. Finance and marketing people will often be more sensitive to rankings than say supply chain or business development would be.

All I'm saying is that it's not like IB or consulting. You don't see the drastic cutoff in recruiting based on rank. It's not "M7 or bust".

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Re: Sick of these yet? Decide my fate: Kellogg (1Y) vs. Yale   [#permalink] 11 Mar 2009, 12:42
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