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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
I want to know, too. I thought there should be “may be” or “are” after “however ruthless the countermeasures”.
Is it grammatically correct to omit be verb ?

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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
Bunuel
Please share official explaination, this will help us to clear the concepts.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
AndrewN wrote:
There are does not effectively convey that anyone is adopting ruthless countermeasures in their efforts, just that such countermeasures exist. So, while I would not dismiss this answer choice on the grounds that it changes the meaning of the sentence, I would call it suboptimal in its clear and concise expression of vital meaning. For this reason, I would favor the original sentence.


Dear AndrewN, dear community,

I choose E and struggle to understand why A is deemed the better choice. You have critized that in E it is not clear that "anyone is adopting ruthless countermeasures". While I agree with the critizism of E I do not think that A does any better.

Quote:
(A) however ruthless the countermeasures
(E) even though there are ruthless countermeasures


In E we know from "there are" that ruthless countermeasures exist. We don't know whether anyone is adoptiong additional countermeasures, but at least we do know that currently some do exist.
In A we know even less (in my opinion). We know that if there were ruthless countermeasures they would not be very effective (which we also know from E), but we don't know whether any exist, whether any are being proposed, whether legislation is being drafted or whether these measures are being debated. We are left to guess because that answer does not even include a verb, not even a small one as "are", which would have suggested that the measures exist. (Pressumably the missing verb is "may be" but there are many option which also would be possible and therefore this seems ambiguous to me)

Having said this, I assume my logic is flawed as I am no expert and therefore would highly appreciate if you could enlighten me as to where my logic is flawed.

Thank you, kudos to you!
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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
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GMATE1 wrote:
AndrewN wrote:
There are does not effectively convey that anyone is adopting ruthless countermeasures in their efforts, just that such countermeasures exist. So, while I would not dismiss this answer choice on the grounds that it changes the meaning of the sentence, I would call it suboptimal in its clear and concise expression of vital meaning. For this reason, I would favor the original sentence.


Dear AndrewN, dear community,

I choose E and struggle to understand why A is deemed the better choice. You have critized that in E it is not clear that "anyone is adopting ruthless countermeasures". While I agree with the critizism of E I do not think that A does any better.

Quote:
(A) however ruthless the countermeasures
(E) even though there are ruthless countermeasures


In E we know from "there are" that ruthless countermeasures exist. We don't know whether anyone is adoptiong additional countermeasures, but at least we do know that currently some do exist.
In A we know even less (in my opinion). We know that if there were ruthless countermeasures they would not be very effective (which we also know from E), but we don't know whether any exist, whether any are being proposed, whether legislation is being drafted or whether these measures are being debated. We are left to guess because that answer does not even include a verb, not even a small one as "are", which would have suggested that the measures exist. (Pressumably the missing verb is "may be" but there are many option which also would be possible and therefore this seems ambiguous to me)

Having said this, I assume my logic is flawed as I am no expert and therefore would highly appreciate if you could enlighten me as to where my logic is flawed.

Thank you, kudos to you!

Hello, GMATE1. To be honest, I would say the issue seems to be a lack of familiarity with the however _____ the _____ construct. The verb need not be spelled out at the end. For instance, I can draw a comparison in the following manner:

The cheetah is the fastest land mammal on the planet and can catch its preferred prey, the antelope, with ease, however quick the antelope; for this reason, the prey must resort to dodging and weaving to stand a chance of escape.

Now, does the sentence break down because I have not added a verb such as runs or may be after the antelope at the end of the first clause? No. Either action can be inferred via the context of the sentence. This may be a hypothetical scenario, but in a chase, the antelope will lose to the cheetah.

In the sentence at hand, we get, fanaticism can rarely be controlled, however ruthless the countermeasures. The word rarely indicates within the larger context that efforts have been made in the past to control fanaticism. The however construct after the comma, then, can be interpreted in two ways, just as we saw in the sentence about the cheetah:

a) however ruthless the countermeasures taken

b) however ruthless the countermeasures may be

In (E), even though there are ruthless countermeasures rules out the first possibility, since are is, of course, a present-tense verb. This leaves us with the second interpretation only, namely that ruthless countermeasures exist that may be used. But what does this interpretation provide us in the way of clarity that (A) does not? Would you argue that a dual interpretation of (A) hinders its clear expression of meaning? When in doubt, if I have two options that can say the same thing but one that does a worse job of it by adding non-essential words, I favor the terser option. I would choose (A) in this 50/50 every time.

I hope that helps clarify the matter. You are welcome to disagree, of course.

- Andrew
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Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
AndrewN wrote:
In the sentence at hand, we get, fanaticism can rarely be controlled, however ruthless the countermeasures. The word rarely indicates within the larger context that efforts have been made in the past to control fanaticism. The however construct after the comma, then, can be interpreted in two ways, just as we saw in the sentence about the cheetah:

a) however ruthless the countermeasures taken

b) however ruthless the countermeasures may be

In (E), even though there are ruthless countermeasures rules out the first possibility, since are is, of course, a present-tense verb. This leaves us with the second interpretation only, namely that ruthless countermeasures exist that may be used. But what does this interpretation provide us in the way of clarity that (A) does not? Would you argue that a dual interpretation of (A) hinders its clear expression of meaning? When in doubt, if I have two options that can say the same thing but one that does a worse job of it by adding non-essential words, I favor the terser option. I would choose (A) in this 50/50 every time.



First of all thank you very much for your very fast response; I highly appreciate it, kudos to you!

Yes, this gets exactly to the point of my reasoning. If something has two ways of interpretation, then that seems to fit the definition of ambiguity fairly well. Ambiguity is not always a 100% certain elimination method, but I always thought it would trump brevity. The short form in A sounds more elegant to me, however I thought this is exactly what the GMAT uses to trick people, i.e. give an answer choice which sounds nice because of the brevity of the sentence, but has a mistake (even if the mistake is just ambiguity).

AndrewN wrote:
Would you argue that a dual interpretation of (A) hinders its clear expression of meaning?


Hahaha :D, yes that is exactly what I would argue. If an answer can eliminate the ambiguity then this seems to me as more effective communication and therefore preferable :?

AndrewN wrote:
When in doubt, if I have two options that can say the same thing but one that does a worse job of it by adding non-essential words, I favor the terser option.

This is funny to me (, because it is so confusing), I remember reading in the section on ambiguity in my book that while verbs and some other words can be removed (on GMAT questions) if their removal does not cause ambiguity, it is never wrong to repeat them. But what you seem to be saying seems to oppose this sentiment. Previously this approach worked well for me, until I got this question which causes me to doubt whether that approach was ever correct.
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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
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GMATE1 wrote:
AndrewN wrote:
In the sentence at hand, we get, fanaticism can rarely be controlled, however ruthless the countermeasures. The word rarely indicates within the larger context that efforts have been made in the past to control fanaticism. The however construct after the comma, then, can be interpreted in two ways, just as we saw in the sentence about the cheetah:

a) however ruthless the countermeasures taken

b) however ruthless the countermeasures may be

In (E), even though there are ruthless countermeasures rules out the first possibility, since are is, of course, a present-tense verb. This leaves us with the second interpretation only, namely that ruthless countermeasures exist that may be used. But what does this interpretation provide us in the way of clarity that (A) does not? Would you argue that a dual interpretation of (A) hinders its clear expression of meaning? When in doubt, if I have two options that can say the same thing but one that does a worse job of it by adding non-essential words, I favor the terser option. I would choose (A) in this 50/50 every time.



First of all thank you very much for your very fast response; I highly appreciate it, kudos to you!

Yes, this gets exactly to the point of my reasoning. If something has two ways of interpretation, then that seems to fit the definition of ambiguity fairly well. Ambiguity is not always a 100% certain elimination method, but I always thought it would trump brevity. The short form in A sounds more elegant to me, however I thought this is exactly what the GMAT uses to trick people, i.e. give an answer choice which sounds nice because of the brevity of the sentence, but has a mistake (even if the mistake is just ambiguity).

AndrewN wrote:
Would you argue that a dual interpretation of (A) hinders its clear expression of meaning?


Hahaha :D, yes that is exactly what I would argue. If an answer can eliminate the ambiguity then this seems to me as more effective communication and therefore preferable :?

AndrewN wrote:
When in doubt, if I have two options that can say the same thing but one that does a worse job of it by adding non-essential words, I favor the terser option.

This is funny to me (, because it is so confusing), I remember reading in the section on ambiguity in my book that while verbs and some other words can be removed (on GMAT questions) if their removal does not cause ambiguity, it is never wrong to repeat them. But what you seem to be saying seems to oppose this sentiment. Previously this approach worked well for me, until I got this question which causes me to doubt whether that approach was ever correct.

I think you are missing the larger point I am hoping to make, though, GMATE1, or I am failing to make that point clear. To be sure, ambiguity can be undesirable in SC, even though, as you noted yourself, it is not an automatic dismissal for any answer choice that falls into such territory, and short answers sometimes present clever traps. The real issue, however, is whether ambiguity or conciseness hinders the expression of vital meaning.

Again, I would contend that either interpretation of the original sentence is valid, and in a way that does not hamper our understanding of what the sentence aims to convey. The point is that fanaticism, despite countermeasures against it, can rarely be controlled. The original sentence expresses that notion just fine, regardless of which interpretation you seek to follow, and it uses fewer words than (E) does to get the point across. That is why I favor (A) and, more importantly (if this is from an official GMAT paper test), why GMAC™ favors (A).

I hope the distinction is clear now. Good luck with your studies.

- Andrew
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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
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1. Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self-less patriots eager to die for their beliefs, fanaticism can rarely be controlled, however ruthless the countermeasures.

(A) however ruthless the countermeasuresidiomatic; the verb is understood, therefore it doesn’t really require ‘are’ at the end
(B) whatever the ruthless there is in the countermeasures – ‘the ruthless’- ruthless is not a noun and can’t be used this way
(C) no matter threat the countermeasures are ruthless – not parallel – ‘no matter the threat, the countermeasures are useless’
(D) in spite of the ruthlessness of the countermeasures – in spite of the ruthlessness is a wordy way to make the point
(E) even though there are ruthless countermeasures – again, too wordy
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Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
generis
Can you kindly explain why E is incorrect? Does not however express contrast in option A?
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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
egmat
Hi expert,
I rejected option A just because the word "however" is an independent clause indicator and hence must be preceded by a semicolon. Can you please let me know the flaw in my reasoning?
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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
egmat, GMATNinja

Please help, and guide if there is any definite split among options? Or it is simply idiomatic preference?
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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
GMATNinja can you please simplify this for us?

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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
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Re: Since fanatics usually regard themselves as self- less patriots eager [#permalink]
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