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So you really want to know how employment changed this year

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So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2009, 13:02
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There has been a lot of discussion of how recruiting was this year and thanks to Duke we have the first official numbers that we can compare with the same information/timeframe. A quick comparison of this years and last years numbers for the same report supports a lot of what people have heard. Students also seemed much more likely to accept an offer quickly than before, a much lower percentage of students who had offers by May 10th this year had not accepted them.

Other interesting things to notice; internships were hit much harder than fulltime offers...especially the people without permanent work authorization. Far more fulltime people accepted offers from internship employeers and a large increase in the number of people returning to former employers than the prior year. There was a 13% drop in people going into finance fulltime. However, a quick look shows salaries went up 4-5%

2009 Preliminary report https://www.fuquaworld.duke.edu/cmcfiles/DukeMBAFinalEmploymentStats08-09_06-03-09.pdf
2008 version of the same report: http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/documents/mba_recruiting/Duke_MBA_preliminary_employ1.pdf

INTERNSHIPS
OFFERS:
With permanent U.S. work authorization: 2008 = 93% / 2009 = 77%
Without permanent U.S. work authorization: 2008 = 87% / 2009 = 54%
All students seeking employment: 2008 = 91% / 2009 = 69%

ACCEPTED OFFERS:
With permanent U.S. work authorization: 2008 = 88% / 2009 = 75%
Without permanent U.S. work authorization: 2008 = 80% / 2009 = 49%
All students seeking employment: 2008 = 85% / 2009 = 66%

FULL TIME
OFFERS:
With permanent U.S. work authorization: 2008 = 89% / 2009 = 72%
Without permanent U.S. work authorization: 2008 = 79% / 2009 = 66%
All students seeking employment: 2008 = 85% / 2009 = 70%

ACCEPTED OFFERS:
With permanent U.S. work authorization: 2008 = 79% / 2009 = 69%
Without permanent U.S. work authorization: 2008 = 72% / 2009 = 62%
All students seeking employment: 2008 = 76% / 2009 = 67%


* Note this is only for one school and I am sure there is great variation between the different schools and how hard they were hit. Another thing to remember is that there is the job market will most likely be very different come winter time...and FAR different come winter of 2011.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2009, 13:13
Scary! Paying $150k and not opening the doors to get to where you want to go.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2009, 13:27
Plenty of my international friends got great internships, unfortunately it seems getting a visa in the US is more difficult so instead of working for a big name company in the US those same companies are hiring for their overseas offices. I do know that Kellogg's employment number is around 95% for the summer now and I think this year will be the worst year. Companies were recruiting when they had no clue what the economy was going to be like so a lot cut back numbers or pulled out entirely.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2009, 13:59
One more good reason to shoot for top schools.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2009, 15:33
I would bet Duke picked up at least 10-15% since this data was compiled. However, many of the things that come out that late in the game don't pay very well. Though some of those like PE/VC can be incredibly lucrative fulltime and some firms pay very well during the summer too.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2009, 16:56
Any reason why internships for people without permanent work authorization were hit harder than the rest? I believe the school's international office grants permission for internships and not the immigration authority.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2009, 17:03
Ugh, how depressing! :(

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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jun 2009, 17:14
Class2012 wrote:
Any reason why internships for people without permanent work authorization were hit harder than the rest? I believe the school's international office grants permission for internships and not the immigration authority.

Has nothing to do with the school its all about what companies want to do. They can hire interns all the want but if they dont hire internationals fulltime then will not hire them for the summer. The point of internships is basically a 10+ week interview so companies dont want to take on people they don't intend to hire fulltime. I know Kellogg does a lot of info sessions on visas and recruiting for internationals. They also have a list of US hires for internationals that is based on info from the M7, and has every company and position internationals were hired into at all those schools for the last several years.

This year some companies that historically hired interns fulltime did not do so this year and may or may not in the future. The last few years the visa lottery caused some headaches for companies. Also companies that took TARP money can't get visas until they pay that money back...and many of those banks hired a lot of internationals.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 21 Jun 2009, 08:17
wow very depressing
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 21 Jun 2009, 11:35
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What these figures don't show is how many people took jobs that really weren't their intended career paths - I forget the exact statistic I saw (and this was way way back in Jan) but it involved what % of students had accepted the offer they had, and that was down something quite notable -- like 20% -- indicative of the fact that individuals were getting offers, just not their top choice offers. To me, that, if anything, is the most meaningful indicator.

An interesting phenomenon this year was that, because so much of banking (and marketing, and investment management and a slew of other fields and industries) blew up - people fled to consulting in droves thinking it was a safe bet. As I predicted, it was actually less safe than corporate.

The interesting thing about this is the implications for next year. There's some belief that next year's graduating class will be even worse off than 2009 was - banking is unlikely to come back by then and consulting firms will have very little need for recruiting (given that many of this years class starting as late as March of 2010). With two of the most common employers potentially hit, next year could be the 'perfect storm'. Those who know they want to do something other than banking/consulting will, arguably, be in a better position than their peers. An interesting phenomenon we saw this year, which may well repeat itself with the class of 2010, is a disproportionately high number of candidates accepting offers from their internship firms. For whatever reason this seemed particularly prevalent among marketing jobs, to the extent that some firms canceled on campus recruiting after abnormally high yields from their summer interns.

There's also the very real prospect of rescinded offers coming in subsequent months, particularly in the consulting industry (which so predictably lags everyone else) which would probably bode well for the class of 2010. Since the employment reports come out now (or not too long from now), I can't help but wonder what the real picture will look like.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 21 Jun 2009, 17:23
River,

What would say the typical breakdown is for students at Kellogg who pursue finance and consulting? 50% combined?

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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 21 Jun 2009, 20:33
Considering the situation, hiring for those who doesn't have work permit is quite encouraging.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 23 Jun 2009, 23:56
Rhyme - Very interesting perspective on the job market. How do you think next year's slump for hiring by companies will impact the class of 2011 and 2012? Have you heard any talk at school, recruiting events, etc? Do you foresee a lot of companies rushing to hire in 2011 and 2012 years b/c of the small recruiting numbers from the previous years (assuming that the economy is reasonably stable)? I know a lot of it is speculation, but I am trying to get a "qualified" speculation if possible. :)


rhyme wrote:
What these figures don't show is how many people took jobs that really weren't their intended career paths - I forget the exact statistic I saw (and this was way way back in Jan) but it involved what % of students had accepted the offer they had, and that was down something quite notable -- like 20% -- indicative of the fact that individuals were getting offers, just not their top choice offers. To me, that, if anything, is the most meaningful indicator.

An interesting phenomenon this year was that, because so much of banking (and marketing, and investment management and a slew of other fields and industries) blew up - people fled to consulting in droves thinking it was a safe bet. As I predicted, it was actually less safe than corporate.

The interesting thing about this is the implications for next year. There's some belief that next year's graduating class will be even worse off than 2009 was - banking is unlikely to come back by then and consulting firms will have very little need for recruiting (given that many of this years class starting as late as March of 2010). With two of the most common employers potentially hit, next year could be the 'perfect storm'. Those who know they want to do something other than banking/consulting will, arguably, be in a better position than their peers. An interesting phenomenon we saw this year, which may well repeat itself with the class of 2010, is a disproportionately high number of candidates accepting offers from their internship firms. For whatever reason this seemed particularly prevalent among marketing jobs, to the extent that some firms canceled on campus recruiting after abnormally high yields from their summer interns.

There's also the very real prospect of rescinded offers coming in subsequent months, particularly in the consulting industry (which so predictably lags everyone else) which would probably bode well for the class of 2010. Since the employment reports come out now (or not too long from now), I can't help but wonder what the real picture will look like.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 25 Jun 2009, 18:56
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I know interest in consulting was pretty steady here (its always been very popular). For internships most of what I heard indicated BCG and McKinsey had great years (supposedly it was 2nd best year in the last decade), Bain was way down but Bain was way down everywhere and it seems like they had lower yield than the other two. From friends who worked at these companies, they cut back on their numbers and some schools took it tough, for example I heard that at Cornell only one person is at one of the big 3 this summer. I think fulltime Kellogg did well at M/B/B...Deloitte did amazingly well too. However, it is definitely true that lots of people are having their start dates pushed back. For internships most of the other consulting companies hired only a handful each so that took its toll. As for banking, I think interest probably fell in half and placement for these people was pretty good because so many folks self selected out. I know people who started out talking banking and before thanksgiving were reevaluating their plans.

For internships: marketing was surprisingly strong in the end. I think it was scary at first with companies slowly rolling out offers. I know people who are at the same place this summer who got offers several months apart. Tech was strong and some new big name companies showed up and hired people. Healthcare was a great place for Kellogg, if the numbers I heard for JnJ are right they must have been the #3 hirer this year...one of my friends going there said they had like 16 or 18 people heading there. Lots of my friends successfully career switched into HC this year.

Interesting note, I think operations jobs did very well in this job market which makes sense. It’s a function that can bring immediate and measurable returns for companies. The projects are also something that you can accomplish in a summer. Also with the drastically changing economy, companies are really rethinking a lot of their operations.

This year everyone is really working hard to get offers from summer internships (probably always the case) but I think that with the unknown most people are really hoping to have at least something set since its still unknown. I have talked with recruiters from some of the companies I interviewed with, and they are planning on coming back and they said this year for them should be better because they see the economy improving and they want to be prepared. I do think Rhyme is right, consulting probably will be tough this year I doubt many people who didn't intern at one of the big companies will be breaking in. The exceptions might be a tiny number of folks who did summers for huge corporations in areas the consulting firms are still doing lots of business. I also wouldn’t be surprised if their rate of fulltime offers to interns slips this year.

I would not be shocked to see extremely high rates of people accepting summer offers though most people I know plan on recruiting again even if they love their summer. But if push comes to shove in November/December people will be accepting offers if nothing better comes along.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 26 Jun 2009, 09:46
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 08 Jul 2009, 07:33
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Look at 2003 MBA Grads for an idea on Consulting. The majority of 2009 got pushed back to 2010 in the past month or so. A bank pushed its whole class back to August 2010 start. A consultancy recently rescinded, but that was expected as part of a whole C.11.

The problem for Internationals in the interim is that you only will get a summer at a big place if they have the slightest interest in hiring you full-time (esp Banks, Consultancy) because - whether you feel otherwise or not - you are a hinderance being there for ten weeks. It isn't quite bring your child to work time (that is the analysts) but it isn't far off. Out with that, small places will take you but tell you there is no potential for an offer, and might not even pay you if it is something believed to be sexy (media, sport, PE, VC, HF). So why would you do that? 10 weeks in the middle of two years with no job in sight is a big risk.

CaliCPA - rhyme and myself are pretty out of the loop I expect (maybe he has some ideas). We had near zero recruiting for the past 6 months, especially on campus for FT. The one thing that is clear is that everyone is more focused on now, and has no idea how the future will be. When you are tied to the train tracks, you are busy working how to untie yourself before a train turns up, not checking the timetable to see how quickly you should be undoing the knots.

I wouldn't want to be a career switcher in IB for the next few years. The odds are seriously reduced. But then, no one wants to do IB any more.... the boutique things (PE, HF) are going to get trickier and trickier. And they are like a 5 square rubik's cube as it is (unless you went to HBS, at which point it is maybe a 4-square).
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 16 Jul 2009, 23:52
This is seriously worrying me. My expectation was that within a year or two, things would be swinging again. I posted an article in this forum that states that things are likely not to turn around for roughly 5 years or so.

I mean, I want to go to business school for the experience/learning/networking as much as the next guy/girl, but I cant justify >$100K just to do so, unless I am able to obtain a rewarding job post-mba.

Are any other GMATClubbers dealing with the same issue now, or are most just plugging ahead regardless of the current status? I have never questioned higher education until now...
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 20 Jul 2009, 05:45
My conjecture here would be that if Business School is ever seeming like an absolute no-brainer with regards to return on investment, gaining the job you want etc., then the next market crash is just around the corner.

It shouldn't really be a just pass go situation to greater wealth, and ought to need more motives than that.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 04 Aug 2009, 03:29
CaliCpa wrote:
This is seriously worrying me. My expectation was that within a year or two, things would be swinging again. I posted an article in this forum that states that things are likely not to turn around for roughly 5 years or so.

I mean, I want to go to business school for the experience/learning/networking as much as the next guy/girl, but I cant justify >$100K just to do so, unless I am able to obtain a rewarding job post-mba.

Are any other GMATClubbers dealing with the same issue now, or are most just plugging ahead regardless of the current status? I have never questioned higher education until now...


I'm also questioning it right now. Mainly because I'm European, and was planning on heading to the US for my MBA. But having loans of above 150K and low chances of finding a decent paying job doesn't really justify that. So, if I were to go to the US, I'd have to find a school that has a good placement history in Europe and career services that help find work outside the US, or at least a large network in Europe. But then I might as well just get a degree in Europe, which I'm just not as excited about. We'll see. There's a lot I need to think about. I already pushed back applications to round 2, I was originally planning on starting with round 1, but I'm not sure I want to spend all the money on applications yet if I may not end up going even if I do get in.
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Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year [#permalink] New post 11 Sep 2009, 01:14
Hello,

Nowdays, most of the companies are preferring interns,but it has nothing to do with school..
but it's very depressing


Regards,
Nelson
Jimmclemmer
Re: So you really want to know how employment changed this year   [#permalink] 11 Sep 2009, 01:14
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