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Re: The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth [#permalink]
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zac123 wrote:
GMATNinja : Can you please explain how the usage of"derive" is correct in option C.

This question is confusing because the verb "derive" comes before the plural subject, "both the northern and the southern Indian alphabets."

To understand how this works, take a simple example in which the subject comes first: "English and French both derive from Latin, which Dave studied in high school." It's easy enough to see that "English and French" is the subject and "derive" is the verb.

However, I could also have written the sentence as, "In high school, Dave studied Latin, from which derive both English and French." Sounds a little weird, but "English and French" is still the subject, it just happens to come after the verb. The sentence still has the same meaning, and the subject "English and French" still does the action in the sentence ("derive from Latin"). All we did was switch the order around a bit.

Same issue in (C). If the question writer had wanted to make life easy for you, she could have written, "Both the northern and the southern India alphabet derive from the Aramaic script," in which case it would be easy to see that "the northern and the southern India alphabet" serves as the subject. Instead, we have "...the Aramaic script from which derive both the northern and the southern India alphabets." Again, "the northern and the southern India alphabets" is the subject, but this time it follows the verb, so it's tougher to recognize.

I hope that helps!
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The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth [#permalink]
The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth century B.C., bringing the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and southern India alphabets.


(A) the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and - which should modify the immediately preceding noun/pronoun. It stands for Achaemenid empire... The alphabets were derived from the script, not the empire.

(B) the Aramaic script with it, and from which deriving both the northern and the - Same as A

(C) with it the Aramaic script, from which derive both the northern and the - Seems correct. Usage of derive is also correct, because as you see, this is an inverted sentence where verb is before the sentence. Hence, to confirm whether it should be derive or derives, invert the sentence - Both the N & S alphabets derive from the script

(D) with it the Aramaic script, from which derives both northern and - SV Agreement error

(E) with it the Aramaic script, and deriving from it both the northern and - 2 simultaneous verb-ings modifying the first clause which is incorrect.
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Re: The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth [#permalink]
sayantanc2k wrote:
RMD007 wrote:
Experts please explain how "derive" is correct in C.
With the SV pair, I am convinced that we should use plural form i.e. "derive", but from tense prospective how does "simple present" makes sense with "reached"?


Consider this a stylistic usage - somewhat similar to the following example:
I come from India.


But Sir in Real Gmat Exam ,if this type of problem comes we might eliminate it based on Tenses issue . Is their any method we can identify it .
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The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth century B.C., bringing the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and southern India alphabets.

(A) the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and "from which" incorrectly modifies "it" ie; the Achaemenid empire - it should modify the "Aramaic script". Unnecessary usage of passive voice. Eliminate.

(B) the Aramaic script with it, and from which deriving both the northern and the Same modifier error as in (A). Also, "from which deriving" is not parallel to "bringing". Eliminate.

(C) with it the Aramaic script, from which derive both the northern and the Correct answer - modifier error is rectified and no new errors are introduced.

(D) with it the Aramaic script, from which derives both northern and Incorrect usage of singular "derives" to refer to two alphabets. Eliminate.

(E) with it the Aramaic script, and deriving from it both the northern and "and deriving" implies that the Achaemenid empire did the "deriving", which is not implied by the original sentence. Eliminate.

Hope this helps.
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Re: The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth [#permalink]
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Quote:
The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth century B.C., bringing the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and southern India alphabets.

(A) the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and

(B) the Aramaic script with it, and from which deriving both the northern and the

(C) with it the Aramaic script, from which derive both the northern and the

(D) with it the Aramaic script, from which derives both northern and

(E) with it the Aramaic script, and deriving from it both the northern and


GMATNinja generis MartyTargetTestPrep AjiteshArun GMATGuruNY

I did arrive at the correct answer through the POE and meaning aspect and has no doubt in the official answer.

What I am really struggling to get my head around is the structure.

The correct sentence reads:
The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth century B.C., bringing with it the Aramaic script, from which derive both the northern and the southern India alphabets.

The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth century B.C.: Main Clause / Independent clause

, bringing with it the Aramaic script, : Participial Modifier (Verb-ing) for the previous clause

from which derive both the northern and the southern India alphabets.: Modifier for the NOUN "Aramaic Script". --> This is a clause as seen from the structure and discussion of all the experts above.

So what we have got is:

Independent Clause, Verb-ing (adverbial) modifier, Clause modifying the noun in the Adverbial modifier

Clause modifying the noun in the Adverbial modifier: As far as i remember and understand, a clause should not be used for noun modification ,and looking at the structure above, I can see a run on structure : Independent Clause, Verb-ing (adverbial) modifier, Clause modifying the noun in the Adverbial modifier


Would you please shed some light on this uncommon usage of usage a clause to modify the noun?
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Vinit800HBS wrote:
Would you please shed some light on this uncommon usage of usage a clause to modify the noun?

Hi Vinit800HBS,

Dependent clauses are different from independent clauses. Independent clauses can form complete sentences on their own, and they are the ones that we find in run-ons and comma splices. An independent clause would look like this:

1. Both X and Y derive from Z. ← There's no relative (like which or that) here. This clause sounds like a complete sentence.

What we see in the correct option is a dependent clause. Specifically, it's a relative (adjective) clause. When a relative is used after a preposition (as its object), we can choose to place the preposition before the relative or after.

2. the Aramaic script, from which derive both X and Y ← Preposition first: this is the more formal way to express the same idea as in (3).

3. the Aramaic script, which both X and Y derive from ← Relative first: this is the more common way to express the same idea as in (2). Most people prefer this form.
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AjiteshArun wrote:
Vinit800HBS wrote:
Would you please shed some light on this uncommon usage of usage a clause to modify the noun?

Hi Vinit800HBS,

Dependent clauses are different from independent clauses. Independent clauses can form complete sentences on their own, and they are the ones that we find in run-ons and comma splices. An independent clause would look like this:

1. Both X and Y derive from Z. ← There's no relative (like which or that) here. This clause sounds like a complete sentence.

What we see in the correct option is a dependent clause. Specifically, it's a relative (adjective) clause. When a relative is used after a preposition (as its object), we can choose to place the preposition before the relative or after.

2. the Aramaic script, from which derive both X and Y ← Preposition first: this is the more formal way to express the same idea as in (3).

3. the Aramaic script, which both X and Y derive from ← Relative first: this is the more common way to express the same idea as in (2). Most people prefer this form.



Amazing one. Thanks for the clarity AjiteshArun. I was treating the clause as an Independent one but now I can see why the "which" is a relative clause because the pronoun "which" is the object of the clause and not the subject of the relative clause.

Thank you once again for the clarity
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Re: The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth [#permalink]
How the sentence "from which derive both the...." is complete. Shouldn't the sentence be "from which both the ... was derived" ?
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Re: The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth [#permalink]
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rashmig wrote:
How the sentence "from which derive both the...." is complete. Shouldn't the sentence be "from which both the ... was derived" ?


Hello rashmig,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, "from which derive both the northern and the southern India alphabets" is a dependent clause rather than an independent clause, meaning it does not need to be able to stand as a complete sentence.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth [#permalink]
The Achaemenid empire of Persia reached the Indus Valley in the fifth century B.C., bringing the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and southern India alphabets.

Option Elimination -

As GMAT typically tries to respect historical facts, the facts presented in this question are based on some hypothesis suggesting a potential connection between the Aramaic script and some Indian scripts like Kharosthi, which was used in ancient Gandhara (modern-day Pakistan and Afghanistan). Kharosthi script was prevalent in northwestern India from the 3rd century BCE to the 4th century CE.

The connection is speculative and debated among scholars. Some propose a distant link between the Aramaic script and Kharosthi based on similarities in certain characters, while others argue for independent development or influences from other scripts. For enthusiasts on this topic who want to learn more, I have shared a brief about the Indian alphabet and its origins. A quick search on the internet. :) I am not a language scholar, and they may know better. Whether we do GMAT or not, the facts must be correct and not based on some speculative hypothesis. Apologies, please don't get me wrong. I greatly respect the GMAT and its writers, but when we write such sentences, we could have been factually correct and not spread some speculative hypothesis that is still debated. We spread our point of view so much that people start taking it as a fact when it is not. This messaging is even critical when living in a world of AI. :)

Now I have that off my chest, let's dig into the question.

(A) the Aramaic script with it, from which was derived both northern and - "which" refers to "The Achaemenid empire," meaning as if alphabets have originated from "The Achaemenid empire." Moreover, "northern and southern India alphabets" is a plural subject in an inverted S-V sentence, so a singular verb "was" is wrong.

A bit more on the Inverted structure if you like to dig deeper.

1. Look for the presence of auxiliary verbs, e.g., "is," "are," "has," "have," "was," "were," "had," etc. The inverted structure will have an auxiliary verb in the beginning. If we encounter an auxiliary verb in the beginning, we are most likely dealing with the inverted structure. E.g., Are there any options available? Here, the subject is "options," and the verb is "are." Had I known the deadline, I would have applied earlier. Here, the subject is "I," and the verb is "had known."
2. Pay attention to the prepositional phrases or introductory clauses - The subject-verb may be inverted to create a smoother flow. For example, In the middle of the room stood a beautiful Piano. Here, the subject is "Piano," and the verb is "stood."
3. Questions and exclamations - Questions and Exclamations have an inverted subject-verb structure. Beware of the question words - how, why, what, where, who- and exclamation markers - what, how. E.g., What were they thinking when they made the decision? Here, the subject is "they," and the main verb is "were thinking." How incredible is the view from the top of the mountain! Here, the subject is "the view," and the verb is "is."
4. Idiomatic expressions - Not only did she win the competition, but she also set a new record. Here, the main subject is "she," and the verb is "did win." Only when the sun sets does the city indeed come alive? Here, the subject is "the city," and the verb is " does come."

(B) the Aramaic script with it, and from which deriving both the northern and the - "which" refers to "The Achaemenid empire" or "the Aramaic script" or the act of "reaching the Indus valley." Total mess.

(C) with it the Aramaic script, from which derive both the northern and the - ok. The plural subject "both northern and southern India alphabets" requires a plural verb, which is okay here. "which" properly refers to "the Aramaic script."

(D) with it the Aramaic script, from which derives both northern and - S-V disagreement in the inverted structure. "which" can be deceived as a subject, but as TomATManhattanGMAT beautifully explained, a noun in a prepositional phrase can't be the subject of the sentence. This very fundamental should ring a bell that something is wrong here.

(E) with it the Aramaic script, and deriving from it both the northern and - multiple issues. The same pronoun "it" refers to multiple nouns. The first "it" refers to "The Achaemenid Empire," while the next "it" refers to "the Aramaic script." Moreover, with "and" alphabets can't be derived from "The Achaemenid Empire." Wrong.


Here is some more internet research if someone wants to get more ideas. Let me caution you that the fundamental rule on exams like the GMAT is not to bring your emotions and focus on the task. It's very easy to get sidetracked, and GMAT is the last thing you want to get sidetracked. :) So keep that spirit in mind and take it as purely educational, enriching our knowledge, which, by the way, is not useful on GMAT at least. :). Also, I am not an expert on languages, but maybe the language experts can tell you more.

The history of Indian civilization is among the oldest in the world, with roots dating back thousands of years. The Indus Valley Civilization, one of the earliest known urban civilizations, flourished around 2500 BCE in what is now present-day Pakistan and northwest India. It is recognized for its advanced urban planning, drainage systems, and distinctive pottery and seals.

The Indian scripts have diverse origins. Some of them, like Brahmi and Kharosthi scripts, are considered indigenous to the Indian subcontinent and have centuries-old roots. These scripts evolved into regional scripts like Devanagari, Tamil, Telugu, Bengali, and others.

However, over time, due to interactions and cultural exchanges with other regions, some Indian scripts have been influenced by or adapted from foreign scripts. For instance, the scripts of some South Indian languages have been influenced by the Grantha script, which has links to Pallava and Kadamba scripts. Additionally, scripts like Gurmukhi for Punjabi and scripts for specific languages in the Northeast region have been influenced by scripts like Brahmi (one of the earliest writing systems developed in ancient India, believed to have originated in the 3rd century BCE or even earlier.)

So, while many Indian scripts have indigenous origins, there have been instances of influence or adaptation from foreign scripts due to historical interactions and cultural exchanges. But saying both the northern and the southern India alphabets derive from the Aramaic scripts is a bit of an over-generalization. Isnt it? :)
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