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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at

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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 04 Feb 2013, 21:05
00:00
A
B
C
D
E

Difficulty:

  25% (medium)

Question Stats:

66% (02:26) correct 34% (01:28) wrong based on 37 sessions
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at
Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for
centrally administered complex societies in northern
regions of the Middle East that were arising
simultaneously with but
independently of the more
celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in
what is now southern Iraq.
(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell
Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence
for centrally administered complex societies in
northern regions of the Middle East that were
arising simultaneously with but
(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell
Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that
centrally administered complex societies in
northern regions of the Middle East were arising
simultaneously with but also
(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell
Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence
that centrally administered complex societies in
northern regions of the Middle East were arising
simultaneously but
(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
yields strong evidence of centrally administered
complex societies in northern regions of the
Middle East arising simultaneously but also
(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
have yielded strong evidence that centrally
administered complex societies in northern
regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

Have issues with the use of "that",I have read forums for the discussion about this one.
Although I accept that "evidence for" is wrongly used and "evidence that" is the right usage,some discussions said about the use of "that"

In the original sentence as stated below

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at
Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for
centrally administered complex societies in northern
regions of the Middle East that

Why don't we need "that" after trenches ?
How do we know that author is talking about "first trenches" or he is talking about the "first trenches that were cut into"?
And for the second "that" used after "Middle East" is there any reason why it is wrongly used other than that it modifies "middle east" ,although it should have modified "societies"


Plz pour in ur thoughts

Edit: by carcass
[Reveal] Spoiler: OA

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2013, 02:48
Expert's post
Hi guy

In all fairness, I think is wrong to attack such complex question in the way you did, with the use of that as pivot point.

Moreover, I'm honest to say that me too had problems simply because
- this kind of question is difficult only for the reason that when you read it from the beginning, when you are in the end of the phrase you already forgot where you stand: lost

- is important to understand the exact time line, without this process you always will pick such question wrong or at least you pick right but after five minute (during the exam the pressure blow your mind for sure) that is the same to pick it wrong.

Now back to the question: the acheologists do something NOW (cut a site into pieces) and discover something else (in that place complex societies took place) and the societies AROSE, in the past.

If you use arise or arising the societies seem still there. as an ongoing situation

Infact E is the answer

cut (now) into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously (one time) with but and so on

If you do not understand clearly thi first split (the land were cut not in the past but NOW) by someone. They cut the land into acres NOW :)

Focus on the whole picture. Grammar is important but try to understand a macro vision of the sentence

;)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2013, 05:52
Why don't we need "that" after trenches ?
We can use THAT after trenches (as in the case of option A & B) . We can use either relative clause or participle (among others) to modify a noun. It's not specific modifier that matters but the meaning of the sentence.
that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

Both of the above colored portion are CORRECTLY modifying noun TRENCHES. But there are other error present in option A & B. The Errors are as follows:-
(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but -
Evidence prove that societies AROSE (at one point of time in the past) but the evidences do not prove in any way the period/ process of evolution.
(In simple words, if we want to indicate a simple action in the past, use simple past tense as GMAT prefers simplicity & concision)

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also -
Evidence prove that societies AROSE (at one point of time in the past) but the evidences do not prove in any way the period/ process of evolution. (In simple words, if we want to indicate a simple action in the past, use simple past tense as GMAT prefers simplicity & concision)
Simple present is generally used for facts, truth etc, thus use of YIELDS is incorrect over here


I hope this explanation will help you.

Fame
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2013, 11:06
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targetgmatchotu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.
(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but


Have issues with the use of "that",I have read forums for the discussion about this one.
Although I accept that "evidence for" is wrongly used and "evidence that" is the right usage, some discussions said about the use of "that"
Why don't we need "that" after trenches ?
How do we know that author is talking about "first trenches" or he is talking about the "first trenches that were cut into"?
And for the second "that" used after "Middle East" is there any reason why it is wrongly used other than that it modifies "middle east" ,although it should have modified "societies"

I'm happy to help with this. :-) This is SC#70 from the OG13.

The opening choices ------
"The first trenches that were cut ...." ----- this modifies "trenches" with a subordinate clause, a clause beginning with "that". This is perfectly correct.
"The first trenches having been cut ...." --- participle with a strange tense, not correct
"The first trenches cut ...." ---- as fameatop pointed out above, this is participial phrase, also 100% correct. For more on participial phrases, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/participle ... -the-gmat/

The difference between this would be like the difference between
(a) The horse that was traded for an electric guitar was now .....
(b) The horse, traded for an electric guitar, was now ....
(a) is a "that" clause construction, (b) is a participial construction, and both are correct.

You see, grammar is complex. You can just memorize a simple rule like don't drop the word "that" ----- There are two very different "that" clauses to consider.

Category #1: relative clauses
This is what appears in this sentence. Here, the word "that" acting as a relative pronoun -- others include who, whom, whoever, etc. Within the relative clause, the relative pronoun acts as a pronoun within the clause, often the subject of the clause. Let's look at (A) from the prompt ---- the relative clause is in green.
(1) The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria have yielded ...
Within that clause, the pronoun "that" is the subject of the clause, the subject of the verb "were cut."
Other examples includes
(2) The horse that was traded for an electric guitar was now ....
(3) The regions of Europe that Julius Caesar conquered were not .....
In #2, the word "that" is also the subject of the clause, now the subject of the verb "was traded." In #3, the word "that" is the direct object of the verb "conquered."

Nobody drops the "that" from a relative clause ----- since "that" is acts as a pronoun in the clause, it always sound terribly awkward to drop a pronoun. Pick any sentence with a pronoun, and say the sentence without the pronoun --- it will sound bizarre and incomplete Nobody makes this mistake. The dropping the "that" mistake is never a concern with relative clauses.

Category #2: substantive clauses
For more on this structure, read these two posts:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/substantiv ... -the-gmat/
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-idiom ... ieve-that/
This is what we have following the word "evidence" in the SC sentence above ---- evidence that ..., know that ...., hope that ...., wish that ...., believe that ..... hypothesis that .... etc. etc. etc.
Here, the word "that" is followed by a full [noun] + [verb] clause. Examples, with substantive clause in green ----
(4) .... evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.
(5) The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal.
(6) The senator said that he will not seek reelection.
In all three cases, what follows "that" is a full clause --- in each case, we could extract the green section, throw away the word "that", and the rest of the green part could stand on its own as a full complete sentence. Here, the word "that" is NOT acting as a pronoun --- rather, it is serving to introduce a full clause. Because the word "that" plays no essential role within the clause, it is very tempting to drop it --- in fact, people do all the time in casual conversation, and the GMAT always tests this. This is where one has to have one's antennae up, looking for this very predictable mistake.

Does all this make sense?

Mike :-)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2013, 13:56
Expert's post
Your explantion Mike is outstanding but in my opinion who study Sentence Correction more clinically than logically tend to struggle because their view becomes too technical.

I admit the importance and the distinction among the rules to clarify and consolidate the concepts.

however, on the upper level question to catch the gist of the sentence is more important.

Grammar rules lead you to the next level but after some point if you rely too much on rules, you lose the compass.

I didn't ask to myself where "that" standed for and the significance of it.

I understood that "cut" was the key and D was ackward and wrong because if you read the entire sentence it unfolds not so clearly.

Otherwise A student could be stuck in a limbo for endless time. my personal opinion, acceptable or not

For the rest thanks for the super super super amazing explanation :)

To completely understand what I mean here an article (it is like a windfall in this situation) from brian galvin - veritas prep

Fraud or Phenom In Sentence Correction


Best Regards

carcass
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre   [#permalink] 05 Feb 2013, 13:56
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