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The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 11 Sep 2013, 07:50
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Let me give a different perspective about the use of active and passive voices here.
Quote:
The trenches that were cut
The trenches cut

IMO, both the above are passive voices. One may say that first one is wordier by two words. You might see that a trench has to be cut by somebody. It cannot cut itself or cut another. The cut is used in the sense of a past participle and not past tense at best; one may say that the first is wordier by two words
So whenever you use trench with the verb cut, it will always be in passive. However a trench can run along some route, when it will be in active voice. I hope this difference is realized
Therefore the reason that A is wrong is because of that idiom, evidence for; evidence that is the accepted idiom, So E wins.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 11 Sep 2013, 23:57
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nelz007 wrote:
The first trenches ...

that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

Contd...have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East

that( Refers to societies) were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

I have a question regarding the idiom "Evidence that", "Evidence for" and "Evidence of". Evidence that is the right idiom? It was between A and E ( I eliminated A cos it was passive voice) Others had subject-verb agreement issues ( yields)


Hi Nelson,

Let me address your confusion regarding the above mentioned usages of “evidence” with simple examples.

a. The police found evidence that Syrio was present at the crime scene when the crime happened.
b. The police found evidence for Syrio was present at the crime scene… (Police found evidence because Syrio was present at the crime scene. Changes the meaning).
c. The police found evidence of Syrio was present at the crime scene…(Completely incorrect. It doesn’t make sense to use a clause after “evidence of”)
d. There was ample evidence for the police to file a case against Syrio.
e. The police found no evidence of gun at the crime scene.

Notice how when “evidence” is followed by that, the “that clause” describes what that evidence in fact is. This is absolutely in line with how a typically noun modifier works. You have a noun that is followed by a that clause that explains this noun.

Likewise, when evidence is followed by “for” or “on”, you can see that it is followed by a noun.

So really speaking you do not need to think of “evidence” in terms of an idiom. It works in the same way as any other noun entity would work. But yes, whether evidence should be followed by “that” or by a preposition “for” or “on” depends on what you want to communicate through the sentence.

Hope this helps! :)

Regards,
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 03 Dec 2013, 08:58
Clause breakup

1. the first trenches - NOUN
2. that were cut into a 500 acre site at ..syria , have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the middle east –
Error -1 fragment error – two verb in one clause for one subject – S- V error
That correctly refers to the trenches but need to change that clause modifier to verb ed modifier to adjust S-V pair .
3.that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated
city states of southern Mesopotamia, in

Error 2– that is used to modify preceding clause that incorrectly modifies the preceding noun Middle east only where it should modify the whole preceding clause

Error 3 – As per OG rule for greater clarity and concision, 2 DC [Subordinate] structure should be condensed into one

4. what is now southern Iraq.- Non underlined portion.


1. plural subject – trenches and have yielded ok - S-V pair ok
2. verb tense ok .
3. S-V pair error
4. Modifier placement error


Is the analysis ok ? Want to know except A why B,C,D are incorrect ?



A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but[/quote]
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 04 Dec 2013, 03:14
not only... but also
to say about 2 thing similar

...but ...

to say about two things different, a contrast.

try to understand meaning to use words, a game on sc.

noun+having+done, never exist in english grammar and never exist on gmat land. this is a hard and fast rule which we can use to eliminate an answer choice without reading/understanding the meaning.

if we see a split
noun +(noun+that clause)
vs
noun +that clause.

then the focus of meaning is changed. normally the under pattern is correct.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 05 Jan 2014, 09:13
Double post, please ignore this (mod, please delete this if you can).

Last edited by aeglorre on 09 Jan 2014, 01:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 09 Jan 2014, 01:28
dkverma wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but


Problem with B/D is that we have subject verb error with "trenches... yields".. Problem with C is that "having been" incorrectly implies that it's still going on, also the omission of "with" at the end distorts the intended parallelism with "for" that comes later in the sentence.

The problem with A is that "have yielded evidence.... for... that were arising" .. They yield evidence FOR something? That doesn't sound right. E correctly tells us "have yielded evidence... THAT... arose"... Both A and E correctly use "with" and uphold the parallelism, but E is our best bet.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 29 Mar 2014, 14:23
pqhai wrote:
2013gmat wrote:

1)that were cut(verb)
2)cut into(modifier)

then which one should I choose? and are there any specific rules for that???

Thanks for your help always


First, meaning is key to solve this question
The trenches cut into something (Active voice)
--OR--
The trenches were cut into something? (Passive voice)

Clearly, the trenches only cut into something (how the trenches were cut (passive voice) into something? :?: )

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
Wrong. Passive voice is wrong.

B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
Wrong.
Same as in A. --> Passive voice is wrong.
Trenches is plural --> "yields" is wrong.
Wrong idiom: but also (the correct one is: not only... but also)

C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
Wrong. "having been cut" is ungrammatical.

D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
Wrong idiom: but also (the correct one is: not only... but also)

E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
Correct.
Active voice "the trenches cut into something" <-- correct.
Contrast meaning: arose simultaneously with but independently.... <-- correct.

Hope it helps.


Expanding on this topic - I have two questions:

1) "that were cut" vs. "cut" - aren't they both passive because of the following verb "have yielded?
2) I know from the sounds of it that "having been cut" is wrong but can someone explain why? Isn't "having been cut" past as well so isn't there a corrlation between "having been cut" and "have yielded strong evidence?

Thanks!
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 31 Mar 2014, 10:45
"That were cut" and "cut" are qualifiers that provide information about the trenches. The were in "that were cut" isn't the main verb but is part of a modifier. You need not look for voice in something that isn't the main verb of the sentence. Just replace the entire qualifying fragment with, say X, and read the sentence thus:
The X trenches have yielded...

"Having been" is typically used when the author wants to imply a cause-effect relationship. Typically, you can replace it with something like "because he/she was" without changing the meaning of the sentence by much. If you do that here, you get:
The first trenches, because they were cut, ...

But this doesn't make sense because they are not saying that the first trenches were cut, leading to some other effect (yielding evidence). They want to talk about a specific set of trenches (described by X). So the "having been" construction is not appropriate here.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 08 Apr 2014, 05:26
I wanted to choose E, but I disagreed with the "with but" construction. Can anyone explain to me how this construction is valid?
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 08 Apr 2014, 07:14
The construction is "X societies arose simultaneously with but independent of Y."
Read "but" as a conjunction and split the sentence into two sentences:
X societies arose simultaneously with Y.
But X societies arose independently of Y.

Does it make sense now?


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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 20 Apr 2014, 03:08
In A, the second THAT is not modifying correctly, so A is not correct.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 09 May 2014, 03:26
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but--> that incorrectly modifies Middle East
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also--> stop after reading yields, subject - trenches needs plural verb
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but--> parallelism error. Per sentence, these societies were arising simultaneously with but independently of other societies
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also--> changes meaning
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but--> best option
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 16 Jul 2014, 01:18
too time but reached finally to answer !!!

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

subject trenches so plural form of verb is required here so yields out (B and D)

C is use of having also in correct

Between A and E since first part is in present perfect so E is correct (2nd sentence is past )
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 26 Sep 2014, 23:17
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but - seems evidence is for societies
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also - Singular verb for plural noun
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but - having been cut shows some other action
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also - Singular verb for plural noun
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink] New post 21 Oct 2014, 04:10
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but - not neccessary
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also - same as a
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but - passive
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also - tense error
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but- correct ans
Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at   [#permalink] 21 Oct 2014, 04:10
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