The "Going nowhere" Thread 2010

FYI engineers in my experience tend to be older than most students. Remember the average age/experience for most top schools is around 27/28 and 5 years or so. However, most MC and bankers show up at 25/26 with 3 or so. I think most of my engineer friends have at least 5 years, many have 7+ and many dont come until they are around 30. Engineers typically take longer to advance to a level where they get significant responsibility outside of being technical leads.

Your efforts may be better spent advancing your career next year and then applying in 2012.

If your posts are any indication, your biggest problem is career schizophrenia. You don't need to have finance as a goal to get into wharton/chicago/ or anywhere else...but you do have to have clearly defined goals, a logical progression, and a clear "story". You do engineering, but you are taking the CFA exams? but you might do marketing? or general management? ...It's just all over the board. Age is a factor, but it's a factor because with age comes clarity. If you don't end up going anywhere this year, I would spend the next several months laying down your track. How you got here, where you want to go, and how an MBA will help you get there. Don't even mention the CFA exams if you have no desire to do finance. They aren't going to give bonus points for passing difficult financial exams if they have no bearing on your career goals, no more so than if I got some kind of IT certification (i know nothing about IT).

It's not about lying, it's about showing schools that you are a marketable product. The MBA is a networking/refresher degree, not a career maker. You have to show them where they fit in, not make them think you are relying on their program to dictate your path.

Hi Guys,

Some cause for hope...

760 GMAT, Engineer in Aerospace at a small no-name company, but I did spend 1 year in the UK and a couple months in China, both for work. 2.8 (yes terrible!) undergrad at a state school (2.8 at state school!).

Year1:
- I applied for class of 2010 at Chicago. Got interview, Dinged.
- At this point I had been volunteering with a local high school for about a year, but not heavily.
- After the ding, I took a class at a local community college to offset that poor undergrad GPA (4.0, top grade in class).

Year2:
- I applied early decision to Columbia, round1 to MIT, and round2 to NYU. Dinged at all, no interviews.
- After the dings, I stepped up my volunteer at the high school to lead the program.
- After the dings, I took 2 more classes at a local community college (4.0 in each, top grade in class in each).

Year3 (this year):
- Before applying I started helping a buddy with his startup. This was HUGE. We went from nothing to a small S-corp with patents pending, a couple hundred -grand of equipment, and big ideas. By December of 2009 we had sales and were operating at a slight profit. Again, talking about this in essays/interview I think was HUGE to separate me from other people.
- Continued leadership role volunteering with local high school.
- Accepted! to Kellogg's MMM program.
- Accepted! to Chicago Booth.
- Dinged at Stanford.
- Didn't even submit other apps after hearing from Kellogg and Chicago.

Year3 I also got an admissions consultant and the dude who helped me was great. I actually contacted him right after I got dings from Year2. He was the one who suggested to get involved in some sort of entrepreneurship to separate myself, and I think it was hugely helpful. I talked to him, he encourage entrepreneur, I did that for 6 months, then got back to him and we started writing essays.

So....if you're willing to work at it, I'm confident you'll make it eventually.

Haha, maybe I suck for taking so long to get in...who knows. 28 years old now.

luangm I would like to make 2 points :

1. Your goal as it stands is actually quite interesting and distinctive.But perhaps you need a better story that leads to that goal. i.e Why Environment protection ? Why China ? Why you? what drives and motivates YOU to this role (and no an estimated growth size of the industry is not enough) ? What have you already done that shows that you are working towards it ? Weave a magical and personal story. Show them the passion. And then show where Wharton fits in.

2. Secondly show your allround nature (not that I've seen your current essays). But so far I see great grades. Engineer numbers guy who works in engineering consulting and wants to move into an engineering related business who happens to possess a finance certification. Show how you are good with people. Show your other side. Balance out your package.

Your instropection posts are intersting. Keep up the good work in your essays and dont get married to the idea of studying at Wharton. There are SEVERAL other great schools that will help you achieve your aims.

Please, cyrez8, get off this thread, and take your story elsewhere.
This thread is to help people who didn't get into anywhere this year, and trying to gather up strength and support from all the self-denial, anxiety and discouragement. And to have more experienced/successful forum members to provide constructive criticism.
It is not designed to show off your "selectivity". If USC and UCSD is not your school of choice then why do you apply in the first place? Safety are supposed to have when you are willing to go, not to apply to just feel good.
You do understand that because they admitted you, another person on this planet is suffering in great pain because of the deny letter they received, and may have end up like me, got no where to go this year.
So again please, leave this thread for those who *actually* need help and criticisms.

luangm, I applaud your efforts for introspection and you're doing the right thing by using this setback as a learning experience. You have a very good profile and I'm sure you can get into a top-10 school.

As GoBruins pointed out, I would work on the interview preparation skills. Also, perhaps you can take another look at your essays and see how you can make them EVEN better. I might be totally wrong on this, but I think this here's how adcom approaches the evaluation process. First, they place the application in one of three buckets - straight ding, maybe, strong. The maybe and strong categories are called up for an interview. The maybes need a very good interview to get in while the strong applicants need to make sure they don't blow it. This probably explains why some people who feel they have had poor interviews still get in, because their original application was really strong.

That's the reason I encourage you to take another look at your essays/recommendations and other parts of your application that are within your control and make them even better.

Best of luck!!!

In a asimilar boat to you

28/M/ Nigerian. Working in a small IB in London. Numbers are decent 3.5 GPA ( BSc + MSc)/ 720/4 WE

Given what I do, it only really makes sense to apply to M7 schools - but results have been abysmal:

HBS - no love at all
Wharton - Decent Interview but nothing
Chicago - R1 - straight ding.
CBS - want me to do the january option


Funny thing is, in my wharton interview, interviewer alluded that I may be too good for bschool so i thought I had a good shot only to be disappointed. Columbia interview was similarly positive until result. am i doing something spectacularly wrong as i know people with my background but lesser stat get in?

what i think i did wrong
Maybe I need to apply to lower ranked schools?
Im looking to remain in finance ( was obvious in my essays) so maybe i need to change goals etc?
Did not visit schools

Hi all as the founder of the 2008 zero admits thread, I can feel the pain coming out in this thread.

Here's the zero admits club thread :
the-2008-zero-admits-club-62142.html#p452356

Here's the zero admits club redux about folks who made it next year :
2008-zero-admits-where-are-they-now-77761.html

From what I can see, most of you people have great profiles. But paper profiles mean very little. The key is to write compelling and and well planned essays. Next year, cast your net a little wider. Speak to more current students. Prepare extra hard for the interviews. Show the school extra love. Try and cross that line between admit and ding (with interview).

The reward of b-school experience in the end is well worth it.

you look to have a strong profile and while i don't think it's your MBA GPA that got you dinged, the fact that you already have an MBA may have been what contributed to that. you need to really make sure you convey why a second MBA is necessary, what will you get from it, etc. i also think it's important that you get more experience, not just for you applications, but to distance yourself from your current MBA. you need time in the workplace to explain why you need more than just that MBA, to some ad-com, it may look like you said "aww shoot, this MBA didn't get me where I wanted to be, time to try another". i would stray from another master's degree as you may come off a trophy seeker, i believe that more work experience would be more valuable for you in your case. also, take a look at your essays to see where you can poke holes in them, see what areas you may be lacking in. do you have leadership experience? are you involved in EC's? did you share enough about who you are personally?

I'm in the "going nowhere" boat. I applied to 6 schools: Wharton/Lauder, Kellogg, CBS, Booth, Yale SOM, and Anderson. I got an interview invite everywhere, except for Wharton.

Here's my stats: 30 / F / 710 GMAT / 3.3 UG GPA / 3.5 Graduate GPA - Engineer; I went to state engineering schools for both UG and Grad; I design spacecraft. I also left my job in July. I want to go to business school because I want to do marketing for an international consumer packaged goods company.

Wharton was my first application. When I submitted it in October, I was so proud of my efforts. When I submitted my last application in January, I was embarrassed by my Wharton application. My Wharton written application is the equivalent of a very poor interview. I think, that's one reason I did not get at least an interview with Wharton.

After leaving my job, I volunteered abroad for 1 month. After that, I spent 6 months traveling, visiting friends and family, and visiting B schools. I think that's reason #2 that I don't have a b school to attend. I did not get another job right away. I'll admit that I wasn't very motivated to find a job. I just did not want to do engineering anymore.

I think reason #3 might be my age.

I know that my work experience and ECs are interesting, but not AMAZING. That's probably why I got interviews.

I don't think I had poor interviews because my Kellogg interviewer talked to me after Kellogg gave me their decision (WL and then ding). He said he recommended me for Kellogg. My CBS interviewer also offered me a pre-MBA internship at his company (unpaid). He must've liked me a little bit to offer me such an opportunity.

Yale SOM lets applicants call them in June to get advice for strengthening the application. I will do that. Then I will have some definite answers as to why I was not admitted.

Thank you so much guys for your advices and supports! I recognize my many weaknesses and will seek to improve them. One noteworthy was my lack of significant EC, largely because I was completing my master’s degree in Engineering while working fulltime. Now that I’ve graduated, I’ll be looking to volunteer for some environmental protection groups as that’s where my passion is, and where I can actually make a difference with my knowledge of the industry.

EC's and volunteer are great to have, but what I feel the big thing that business schools are looking for is this:

1. what are you going to do with an MBA?
2. why are you going to be successful with an MBA?

volunteering and EC's are fine, but i'd highly doubt they're (or the lack thereof) are the reason you didn't get in where you wanted. If you've got a good GMAT score and good grades and all that, I'm guessing you didn't show either a) what you want from an MBA, and/or b) why that school is the best fit for where you're at. I reapplied this year to Anderson and Marshall (dinged both '09) and got into both ('10) and I think a big part of my acceptance this year is due to having a very singular focus on what my end goal was. I wanted the adcom to know *exactly* what I want to do post-MBA, and I think that came across. I also worked my tail off (2 classes, better GMAT, promotion, etc) so that definitely helped.

For those who may not know yet what they want to do post-MBA, I'd suggest taking some time to figure that out before reapplying. But take heart, reapplying does work, and there's no harm in working another year! And always remember: you don't *need* an MBA to do anything

I would really hate to say this, but I would also concider retaking the GMAT. For IME (Indian Male Engineer) a 710 would not stand out. Also 2 years is on the lower end for an engineer :D

From reading your post, I think one thing that might have affected you was your tone. While your stats and background are impressive, the fact is that many applicants at top 20 schools have impressive stats. In fact, as you must have observed, many extremely qualified applicants have been dinged across the board. I assure you that had you visited other schools and had one-on-one with students, you'd walk away feeling underqualified because the talent pool at top schools is intimidating. My suggestion to you is to exude "quiet confidence": work really hard on your essays, show your skills but bear in mind that the competition from very qualified folks is fierce. Make sure you visit school and learn as much as you can about the schools. Your essays needs to show fit, which varies by school.

Last point: we all agree that rankings matter, however, within a range, they are relative. Bear in mind that not all graduates of T5/T10/T15 programs are doing great post-MBA. Spread out your application "wings" and be ready to work really hard because at the end of the day, while the utility of your school brand cannot be underestimated and will open doors, your worth is what will take you far in our globalized inter-dependent market.

This was my first time applying so I spread out my applications to a number of BW top tier schools starting from # 1 (target, will-make-do-with, and safety schools). I got some admits, some dings and a waitlist. That way, I was able to choose what was best for me after considering the many variables involved that we all consider....

Good luck

Hey guys, many helpful (although sometimes conflicting) comments so far. Thanks!

I'm trying to gather some suggestions on my "Goal" for next year.

This year I applied with my stories about Environmental Protection businesses in China (est. $1 Trillion by 2030) and an anticipated Director role (which is basically business development as I have a strong network there) to my consulting firm's Shanghai Office after graduation. My recommendation letters from my supervisors highlighted those points with strong supports. And I've conveyed most of my ideas through the essays and interviews.

Arguably my future role is more about Marketing / Business Development / General Management type.
But is this a partial reason why I got dinged after interview at the top Finance schools (Booth & Wharton)? That I didn't show why I need an MBA from a Top finance school to do a BD/GM job?
And maybe a WL from Kellogg JD/MBA is that I didn't show why I need the JD? Arguably JD is very useful for my lobbying role for environmental change in China, since more regulations, more businesses for my firm.
And of course with my firm's work, people in China can enjoy a better standard of living (Compared to current horrible environment in Beijing and Shanghai), which is important to me personally (as my entire family are living there).

I have always believed to tell your true stories and I have told the truth with supports from recommenders. But it seems it's pretty difficult to show "Fit" to these top tier schools with heavy focus on IB/PE/HF/VC and MC, especially when you are not in those fields in the first place.

So I'm really puzzled...Should I "lie" about why I need an MBA? I could certainly talk a lot about "I'd like to switch a career to Equity Research Associate in the Mining and Metals or Oil and Gas sectors, and a Wharton MBA will help me get the training and contacts I need to become a successful Analyst in the future etc.", but working 16 hr days is not really something to look forward to post MBA. I have many close friends (Econ UG classmates) who are in IBs and Sales and Trading, and all told me the horror-stories about the 72hr no-shut-eye experiences.

Keeping in mind that the salary is not the question here. A $100,000 pay (or 700,000 RMB) in China is equivalent to a $300,000 pay in Canada, and maybe a $500,000 in NYC due to the huge difference in Cost of Living.

So guys, Please help me here? Am I just really not "fit" for the best schools? Which T20 school is more "fit" for my background and goal? Should I settle for Rotman this year? I've already go through an interview with their dean and is pretty much a "in". But Rotman doesn't carry any weight at all in China. T7/Yale/Duke/Princeton/UC Berkeley etc. does.

And should I "Lie" about my intentions just to get into Wharton/Booth? I LOVE Wharton Campus and its network opportunities, and for Booth...well...it is THE "Chicago School" after all...

Thanks!!!
No I dont have CFA charter. I dont have the four years of experience. only exams, which is the easy part. sry for the confusion. I dont think anyone under the age of 25 (aside from couple of geniuses who got PhDs at 18, but again, they dont need CFA) is capable of pulling CFA charter off, you need a UG degree, 4 yrs of WE in finance and pass all exams.
Did Lv 1 in Dec. 07 after grad, Lv2 in June 08, Lv3 in June 09.
Did SOA 1/P in March 09, SOA 2/FM in May 09, SOA 3/MFE in Nov. 09.
Worked since May 07, so three yrs WE. Did Masters full time while working in 08, Graduate 09.
Hours are horrible. Head to work at 7am, finish at 6pm, grab a hotdog on the way, go to class at 6:15pm, class ends at 9:15pm. (I picked mostly night classes). Go home, shower, crush, repeat for one year.
Do research, homework, group project work etc. on Sat. & Sun.
Literally NO time for ECs, which is prob. why I got dinged

Getting higher up in an Engineering Consulting firm is no different from getting higher up in a bank.
All you do all day is just to find clients and write proposals / pitch books. (The marketing/BD part) You stop doing the grunting work since you can train younger guys to do it. (The GM part)
None of my firm's directors are doing an "Engineering" role anymore, but its the businesses that they bring in that keeps the firm very profitable. I'll be doing the same thing in China.

But I will consider just knock out anything to do with finance next year. Thanks for the suggestion.

It's seems like you're really smart but you're just collecting accolades without purpose. Why even take the CFA if you have no interest in finance? Seriously. You probably shouldn't even mention it on your application, it might confuse the adcom. I think merkin is right. I think you might suffer from lack of career clarity. You DEFINITELY don't need to lie and tell Wharton/Booth that you want to get into finance to go there. You just need to think about what it is you want in your career and convince them that Wharton/Booth is a great place to make that happen. If you think these two schools are only about finance then you've got the wrong idea and I'm not sure why you're applying to them anyways.