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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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sam9312 wrote:
GMATNinja and other experts
Can you please guide me here...

Comma + Verb-ed modifier modifies the immediately preceding noun or the whole clause?

I have a lot of confusion regarding that.

Also, Differing will modify local times? How? Verb-ing should modify the whole clause, right?

Posted from my mobile device

Consider this example, taken from our article about why that “-ing” word probably isn’t a verb:

    "The angry politician, frustrated by the opposition’s parliamentary tactics and screaming about the other parties’ unconstitutional behavior, is both a hypocrite and a narcissist." - Both "frustrated" (an -ed modifier) and "screaming" (an -ing modifier) are adjectives that modify "politician" (a noun).

You'll certainly find examples where -ed/-ing modifiers modify an entire clause. But they can also act like adjectives and modify nouns. That makes them more flexible than, say, noun modifiers (which, who, where, etc.).

In this question, both "determined" and "differing" are adjectives that modify "local times".

I hope that helps!
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
GMATNinja GMATNinjatwo egmat daagh generis Abhi077 MikeScarn
Need your assistance on this one.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.


(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which differed

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

which were
determined by X
and
differing from A to B (can’t we read like this? Aren’t these parallel?)


(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed
determined … and differed … (can’t we read like this? Aren’t these parallel?)

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing
the growth of railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined … and differing …
(comma + [Verb-ed and Verb-ing])
I understand that comma + determined is modifying local times
How can comma + Verb-ing (differing) modifying local times. Comma + Verb-ing modify the whole clause <- Main Doubt
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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SAm, Your main doubt--- What is the previous clause you are referring to as modified by the comma plus verbing(, differing)? I hope you are not mistaking the main clause at the beginning of the sentence as the previous clause. The previous clause is the local times, which were determined by (This is not an IC but nevertheless a relative clause)

The other doubts --- Which were determined is a clause and differing is a phrase. Therefore both are not //.
Determined by is a participle( the V-3 form) and differed is an active voice verb( the V-2 verb) and hence are not parallel

Only a participle is parallel to another participle

HTH
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
daagh wrote:
SAm, Your main doubt--- What is the previous clause you are referring to as modified by the comma plus verbing(, differing)? I hope you are not mistaking the main clause at the beginning of the sentence as the previous clause. The previous clause is the local times, which were determined by (This is not an IC but nevertheless a relative clause)

The other doubts --- Which were determined is a clause and differing is a phrase. Therefore both are not //.
Determined by is a participle( the V-3 form) and differed is an active voice verb( the V-2 verb) and hence are not parallel

Only a participle is parallel to another participle

HTH


Thanks daagh

If that is the case, why is "the abolition of local times" not the clause? Why just "local times" ?
Yes, I am mistaking the whole part to be a clause...
Also, A clause should have a verb, right?
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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True. A clause, whether IC or DC or RC (relative clause) must have a subject and a verb. Please never forget this. If there is no subject also it is not a clause. Then it will just be a predicate. If there is no verb, then it will be a fragment.

abolition of times does fit in with differing. You see abolition cannot differ. It is only the local times that can vary according to the earth's revolution and rotation. But after the abolition of local times, we now have a uniform time zones. This the logic behind why 'differing' eventually and effectively modifies local times. This is as far as I could understand from your doubt.
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
daagh wrote:
SAm, Your main doubt--- What is the previous clause you are referring to as modified by the comma plus verbing(, differing)? I hope you are not mistaking the main clause at the beginning of the sentence as the previous clause. The previous clause is the local times, which were determined by (This is not an IC but nevertheless a relative clause)

The other doubts --- Which were determined is a clause and differing is a phrase. Therefore both are not //.
Determined by is a participle( the V-3 form) and differed is an active voice verb( the V-2 verb) and hence are not parallel

Only a participle is parallel to another participle

HTH



Why "differing..." is a phrase ? Can we put in "which were " right before it?

Only participle to participle can be //.
:) Very interesting to know Why ?

Posted from my mobile device
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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Alex
1. Differing … is a phrase because there is no verb in it.
2. We can definitely put ‘ which were’ before differing, But what for?
3. Only a participle is parallel to another participle. Why? Because that is the way the rules of parallelism work. Whom can we question about it?
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
Dear GMATNinja

Could you explain what is wrong with (C)?

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

I think that (C) and (E) pretty much convey the same meaning, but (C) is a little bit wordier using "which + were" + determing // + differing. Am I right?

Thanks!
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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Mizar18 wrote:
Dear GMATNinja

Could you explain what is wrong with (C)?

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

I think that (C) and (E) pretty much convey the same meaning, but (C) is a little bit wordier using "which + were" + determing // + differing. Am I right?

Thanks!

There's a subtle difference in meaning too. Take another look at (C):

    "The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city."

Notice that "and" indicates a parallel construction. In this case, "differing" seems to be parallel to "determined." In a vacuum, that's fine -- they're both participles. But in this case, "determined" is part of a verb phrase, so the meaning we get is that the local times "were determined... and differing." The times "were differing?" That's an odd construction. Does that mean they're the same now? If that's the case, why not just write that they "were different?"

Now go back to (E):

    "The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city."

The big difference is that the verb "were" has been omitted, leaving us with the parallel construction, "determined and differing," both participles functioning as adjectives describing the "times." This is better, as we no longer have to grapple with the peculiar meaning of the verb phrase "were differing."

Compared to (C), (E)'s parallel construction produces a clearer, more logical meaning -- in addition to being more concise -- so (E) is our winner.

I hope that helps!
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
Hi Experts, daagh egmat VeritasKarishma

I have a car, which is red and old.

Here, "which is" is applicable to both a) red
b) old


Why cant option (C) be interpreted in a similar way. Please let me know why the following interpretation is invalid.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which were a) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and b) differing from city to city,, and to the establishment of regional times.

So, local times, which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian
and local times, which were differing from city to city,
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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coreyander wrote:
Hi Experts, daagh egmat VeritasKarishma

I have a car, which is red and old.

Here, "which is" is applicable to both a) red
b) old


Why cant option (C) be interpreted in a similar way. Please let me know why the following interpretation is invalid.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which were a) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and b) differing from city to city,, and to the establishment of regional times.

So, local times, which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian
and local times, which were differing from city to city,


"were determined" is a past tense verb in passive.
You will need to give the verb in case you put another clause after 'and'.

...which were determined .. and were different ...

Also "were differing" would mean we are using past continuous tense which makes no sense.

You need to ensure that both elements are in parallel. So "determined by ..." and "differing from ..." are modifiers for local times and are parallel.
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
egmat

Quick Doubt in this.

Although I choose E, going by the meaning that "times differing" would be a continuous action (although differing is not a verb here, as it doesn't have any helping verb with it).

My doubt is, in D, leaving the meaning aside, how could we say that "differed from city to city" is a verb phrase rather than a modifier like "determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian".

Because in my initial analysis for "differing" and "differed" were acting like a modifier, I choose E just because of the meaning.

Please help in this part.
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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sid0791 wrote:
egmat

Quick Doubt in this.

Although I choose E, going by the meaning that "times differing" would be a continuous action (although differing is not a verb here, as it doesn't have any helping verb with it).

My doubt is, in D, leaving the meaning aside, how could we say that "differed from city to city" is a verb phrase rather than a modifier like "determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian".

Because in my initial analysis for "differing" and "differed" were acting like a modifier, I choose E just because of the meaning.

Please help in this part.



Hello sid0791,

Thank you for the query. :-)

The part "determined by..." and "differed..." talk about the noun "local times". Now, it is only logical to say that the local times differed from city to city. It was not the same in all the cities. However, the local times were determined by something else.

Hence, the word "differed" acts as the simple past tense verb while the word "determined" acts as the verb-ed modifier.

Please read our following article to learn how to distinguish between the simple past tense verb and the verb-ed modifier:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/ed-forms-ver ... 34691.html


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
Quote:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing


Hi AndrewN sir

There is lot of discussion above w.r.t. parallelism between determined vs differing /differed. I am confused with these below points:

Reasons for choosing E over D:
1. determined by vs differing/differed from
differed is not parallel to determined by because determined by - passive and differed from -active?- is it?
2. differed from vs differing from - are these both modifiers? why in some posts, it is mentioned "differed" is past verb but not verb-ed modifier. is it?
3. E wins over D because of meaning issue. Differing makes sense over differed from .is it?

In which above numbers reasoning is wrong? Please suggest.
I am little confused with lot of different explanations in above posts.

Please suggest AndrewN sir
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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imSKR wrote:
Quote:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing


Hi AndrewN sir

There is lot of discussion above w.r.t. parallelism between determined vs differing /differed. I am confused with these below points:

Reasons for choosing E over D:
1. determined by vs differing/differed from
differed is not parallel to determined by because determined by - passive and differed from -active?- is it?
2. differed from vs differing from - are these both modifiers? why in some posts, it is mentioned "differed" is past verb but not verb-ed modifier. is it?
3. E wins over D because of meaning issue. Differing makes sense over differed from .is it?

In which above numbers reasoning is wrong? Please suggest.
I am little confused with lot of different explanations in above posts.

Please suggest AndrewN sir

Hello, imSKR. It has been a long day of a long workweek for me, so I am late at getting to this. You want to know how I quickly separated (D) from (E)? I did not bother with the grammar manual. Rather, I considered that and without a comma should join two like entities, and that those two entities should be presentable in either order. For instance, if I say, John and Sue went to the store, I can just as easily say, Sue and John went to the store. With this in mind, I considered just the first part of (D) and (E) in transposed fashion:

(D) The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, differed from city to city AND determined by...
(E) The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, differing from city to city AND determined by...

Choice (D) is clearly lacking. If we want to justify it, we fall back on adding a which in front of differed, but then we need a were before determined. By the time we find a reasonable way to qualify (D), our continuation would no longer resemble (D). Choice (E) wins by a long shot.

I hope that helps. Thank you for thinking to ask me about the question.

- Andrew
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
i have a doubt ... "determined" (verb-ed participle) after comma should ideally modify the entire clause right.

According to the rule that comma + ed/ing modifier modifies entire clause...

but here we are trying to modify only preceding noun "local times". so why is "determined" better than "which" (as which does modify its nearby noun)
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shrutibhatambre wrote:
i have a doubt ... "determined" (verb-ed participle) after comma should ideally modify the entire clause right.

According to the rule that comma + ed/ing modifier modifies entire clause...

but here we are trying to modify only preceding noun "local times". so why is "determined" better than "which" (as which does modify its nearby noun)

Hi Shruti, such participles generally modify the noun or non-phrase immediately before the participle.

Few official examples:

Fossils of the arm of a sloth, found in Puerto Rico in 1991, have been dated at 34 million years old, making the sloth the earliest known mammal on the Greater Antilles islands.
- Past participle found modifying sloth.

Building on civilizations that preceded them in coastal Peru, the Mochica developed their own elaborate society, based on the cultivation of such crops as corn and beans, the harvesting of fish and seafood, and the exploitation of other wild and domestic resources.
- Past participle based modifying society.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses Past participles, their application and examples in significant detail. If you or someone is interested, PM me your email-id; I can mail the corresponding section.
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