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The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused

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The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused [#permalink]

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sravanth wrote:
The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused on a specific high‐risk group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
A. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
B. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, that had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
C. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
D. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
E. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, who were aged 55 to 74, and who had smoked for higher than at least 30 pack‐years


Hi, there. I'm happy to help. :)
First of all, here's a blog article you may find helpful:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/that-vs-which-on-the-gmat/

As for this question, important GMAT idea #1 is --- don't use that/which for human beings; use "who" for human beings. That eliminates (A) and (B) right away.

Answer (E) is wordy and redundant ---- we'll tube that one also.

That leaves (C) & (D), which are remarkably similar. In fact the only difference is the verb tense:

(C) ...smoked...
(D) ... had smoked...

The first is simple past tense, and the second is past perfect. The past perfect is used to indicate that this verb's action took place before some other event in the past. Here, the main verb of the sentence "focused" is in the past. The question is --- did the smoking and the focusing happen at the same time, or was the smoking clearly before the focusing? Well, by the time the study was created and they focused on folks, those folks already had been smoking for quite some time. The smoking clearly has to happen before the focusing. This necessitates the past perfect structure. That's why (D) is correct and (C) is not.

Answer = D

Does this make sense? Let me know if you have any more questions.

Mike :)
[Reveal] Spoiler: OA

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Re: Which That [#permalink]

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New post 07 May 2012, 12:23
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dvinoth86 wrote:
Who should be placed close to smokers right? It is not following the touch rule!! Please clear my doubt


Dear dvinoth86

Here's what I am going to say. I don't know the source of this question. Not all GMAT prep questions are created equal. The SC questions that appears on the GMAT itself are gems, absolutely superb in their clarity and polish, and some test prep sources produce SC questions of comparably high quality. Other GMAT prep sources, to be honest, produce junk SC.

Let's say, I have my suspicions about this question. This is not a question that would appear on the real GMAT. Here's the sentence with the least offensive answer, (D):

The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused on a specific high‐risk group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years.

Yes, you are correct --- the modifier touch rule requires the modifier ("who had smoked ...") to touch the noun it modifies ("smokers"). This sentence does not do that, and so is less than ideal. Is it out-and-out incorrect? That's a matter of debate.

A vital modifier can intervene between a modifier and its target. See this post for more on that idea:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-gramm ... modifiers/
Here, the intervening phrase "aged 55 to 74" is clearly not vital. It is set off by commas, which is the hallmark of a non-vital modifier. No clear rule justifies its position between the noun and the modifier.
At the same time, it's very short, and putting it there involves absolutely no ambiguity --- that's not a resounding vote of support, but some folks would argue on that basis that it's correct. Admittedly, there is not universal consensus on the grammar of this particular point.

One further piece of support is that --- any attempt to reword the sentence to eliminate this problem makes the sentence longer and more awkward. For example:
The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused on a specific high‐risk group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, who were aged 55 to 74 and had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years.
Hardly a model sentence. There is no good way to rework (D) as it stands, which is another sorta argument in its favor.

Mathematics this ain't!!! I'm sorry I can't give you a more definitive answer. On the real GMAT, correct answers will be 100% correct (though not necessary ideal), and incorrect answers will be wrong. On this question, the best answer is in a gray zone ---- not something you will encounter on the real GMAT.

Moral: don't accord the same degree of trust in each and every practice question you see. Some practice questions sources are of much higher quality, and others don't hold up the standard. If you want some high quality questions, follow the link in the signature of the post.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Mike :-)
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Re: Which That [#permalink]

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New post 14 May 2012, 12:06
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dvinoth86 wrote:
Thanks a lot Mike..I'm a fan of your blogs..learnt a lot from them


Why, thank you. That means a lot to me. Thank you very much.

Mike :)
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Re: Which That [#permalink]

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New post 06 May 2012, 00:24
mikemcgarry wrote:
sravanth wrote:
The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused on a specific high‐risk group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
A. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
B. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, that had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
C. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
D. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
E. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, who were aged 55 to 74, and who had smoked for higher than at least 30 pack‐years


Hi, there. I'm happy to help. :)
First of all, here's a blog article you may find helpful:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/that-vs-which-on-the-gmat/

As for this question, important GMAT idea #1 is --- don't use that/which for human beings; use "who" for human beings. That eliminates (A) and (B) right away.

Answer (E) is wordy and redundant ---- we'll tube that one also.

That leaves (C) & (D), which are remarkably similar. In fact the only difference is the verb tense:

(C) ...smoked...
(D) ... had smoked...

The first is simple past tense, and the second is past perfect. The past perfect is used to indicate that this verb's action took place before some other event in the past. Here, the main verb of the sentence "focused" is in the past. The question is --- did the smoking and the focusing happen at the same time, or was the smoking clearly before the focusing? Well, by the time the study was created and they focused on folks, those folks already had been smoking for quite some time. The smoking clearly has to happen before the focusing. This necessitates the past perfect structure. That's why (D) is correct and (C) is not.

Answer = D

Does this make sense? Let me know if you have any more questions.

Mike :)


Who should be placed close to smokers right?
it is not followign the touch rule!!
please clear my doubt
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Re: Which That [#permalink]

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New post 07 May 2012, 14:13
sravanth wrote:
The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused on a specific high‐risk group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
A. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
B. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, that had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
C. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
D. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
E. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, who were aged 55 to 74,and who had smoked for higher than at least 30 pack‐years


hello
here goes my analysis
this question is about testing pronoums
and mainly which that who
the original choice is wrong , as smokers are people hence which can not be used
A is wrong
since we have both former and current smoker the choice of the simple past is impossible
simple past means that an action is over , completed and finished . we can eliminate c

hence we are left with BDE
E is wrong because the use of "were aged "means that the smoker age a long time ago :they were aged 55 to 74
this change the meaning
the higher at least is confusing so
the 2 left choice are B and D
B use that
D use who use to represent a subject

I will go For D

HOPE this help
best regards
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Re: Which That [#permalink]

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New post 13 May 2012, 07:14
Thanks a lot Mike..I'm a fan of your blogs..learnt a lot from them
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Re: The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused [#permalink]

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Re: The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused [#permalink]

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New post 15 Mar 2016, 00:49
Hello from the GMAT Club VerbalBot!

Thanks to another GMAT Club member, I have just discovered this valuable topic, yet it had no discussion for over a year. I am now bumping it up - doing my job. I think you may find it valuable (esp those replies with Kudos).

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Re: The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused [#permalink]

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New post 15 Mar 2016, 01:05
mikemcgarry wrote:
sravanth wrote:
The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused on a specific high‐risk group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
A. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
B. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, that had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
C. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
D. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
E. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, who were aged 55 to 74, and who had smoked for higher than at least 30 pack‐years


Hi, there. I'm happy to help. :)
First of all, here's a blog article you may find helpful:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/that-vs-which-on-the-gmat/

As for this question, important GMAT idea #1 is --- don't use that/which for human beings; use "who" for human beings. That eliminates (A) and (B) right away.

Answer (E) is wordy and redundant ---- we'll tube that one also.

That leaves (C) & (D), which are remarkably similar. In fact the only difference is the verb tense:

(C) ...smoked...
(D) ... had smoked...

The first is simple past tense, and the second is past perfect. The past perfect is used to indicate that this verb's action took place before some other event in the past. Here, the main verb of the sentence "focused" is in the past. The question is --- did the smoking and the focusing happen at the same time, or was the smoking clearly before the focusing? Well, by the time the study was created and they focused on folks, those folks already had been smoking for quite some time. The smoking clearly has to happen before the focusing. This necessitates the past perfect structure. That's why (D) is correct and (C) is not.

Answer = D

Does this make sense? Let me know if you have any more questions.

Mike :)

The focus is on two grammar points.
1) relative pronoun
2) verb tense
The correct relative pronoun for smokers is 'who'
The correct verb tense is past perfect to indicate an event which happened before the survey and for a duration/period.
Therefore, the correct option is D
Option E is correct in using relative pronoun and verb tense. However, for giving additional information, you don't need to introduce a relative pronoun.
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Re: The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused [#permalink]

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New post 11 Apr 2016, 07:14
hi mike mcgarry..
i was confused btw option c & d. as it is obvious about time period. we are talking about people who smoked for at least 30 years. there is no confusion in sequence of events if we use simple past tense. plz clarify.
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Re: The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused [#permalink]

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New post 11 Apr 2016, 07:23
mikemcgarry wrote:
sravanth wrote:
The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused on a specific high‐risk group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
A. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aging from 55 to 74, which had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
B. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, that had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
C. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
D. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years
E. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, who were aged 55 to 74, and who had smoked for higher than at least 30 pack‐years


Hi, there. I'm happy to help. :)
First of all, here's a blog article you may find helpful:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/that-vs-which-on-the-gmat/

As for this question, important GMAT idea #1 is --- don't use that/which for human beings; use "who" for human beings. That eliminates (A) and (B) right away.

Answer (E) is wordy and redundant ---- we'll tube that one also.

That leaves (C) & (D), which are remarkably similar. In fact the only difference is the verb tense:

(C) ...smoked...
(D) ... had smoked...

The first is simple past tense, and the second is past perfect. The past perfect is used to indicate that this verb's action took place before some other event in the past. Here, the main verb of the sentence "focused" is in the past. The question is --- did the smoking and the focusing happen at the same time, or was the smoking clearly before the focusing? Well, by the time the study was created and they focused on folks, those folks already had been smoking for quite some time. The smoking clearly has to happen before the focusing. This necessitates the past perfect structure. That's why (D) is correct and (C) is not.

Answer = D

Does this make sense? Let me know if you have any more questions.

Mike :)


Dear mike

D. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years

to use past perfect tense we need two related events, one is earlier event in the past & the other later event

Please explain how to determine later event in option D - whether it is "focused" or "aged"
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The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused [#permalink]

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New post 11 Apr 2016, 11:04
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ashish8814 wrote:
hi mike mcgarry..
i was confused btw option c & d. as it is obvious about time period. we are talking about people who smoked for at least 30 years. there is no confusion in sequence of events if we use simple past tense. plz clarify.

smartguy595 wrote:
Dear mike

D. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years

to use past perfect tense we need two related events, one is earlier event in the past & the other later event

Please explain how to determine later event in option D - whether it is "focused" or "aged"[/quote]
Dear ashish8814 & smartguy595,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

The most important thing to remember is that this is NOT a high quality practice question. You both are asking for clarification as if understanding this question more deeply will help you. This is fundamentally a misapprehension. You do not necessarily enhance your understanding by wrestling with low quality SC questions.

In the gigantic underlined section, the only difference between (C) & (D) is the verb tense. The GMAT might test verb tenses if all that is underlined is the verb itself, but if the GMAT underlines a long section such as this, it is unlikely to have two choices that differ only in verb tense. That's too picayune a split.

Incidentally, smartguy595, in this sentence, "focused" is a full verb, a verb in the past tense. The word "aged" is purely a participle, a noun-modifier, not a full verb. It's very important to recognize the difference between participles and full verbs.

The truth is that this is not a particularly clean split. I think (D) sounds more natural, but one could certainly make a valid argument for (C). This is one of the ways that this question is not high quality. On a high quality question, one choice is correct and the other four are clearly wrong. On this question, (D) is correct and (C) is arguably correct also. Don't stress over this, thinking one must be absolutely right and one must be absolutely wrong. The question simply is not that good.

Here's a high quality SC question:
Balancing the need for

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused [#permalink]

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New post 11 Apr 2016, 19:58
mikemcgarry wrote:
ashish8814 wrote:
hi mike mcgarry..
i was confused btw option c & d. as it is obvious about time period. we are talking about people who smoked for at least 30 years. there is no confusion in sequence of events if we use simple past tense. plz clarify.

smartguy595 wrote:
Dear mike

D. group: 53,000 current and former heavy smokers, aged 55 to 74, who had smoked for at least 30 pack‐years

to use past perfect tense we need two related events, one is earlier event in the past & the other later event

Please explain how to determine later event in option D - whether it is "focused" or "aged"

Dear ashish8814 & smartguy595,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

The most important thing to remember is that this is NOT a high quality practice question. You both are asking for clarification as if understanding this question more deeply will help you. This is fundamentally a misapprehension. You do not necessarily enhance your understanding by wrestling with low quality SC questions.

In the gigantic underlined section, the only difference between (C) & (D) is the verb tense. The GMAT might test verb tenses if all that is underlined is the verb itself, but if the GMAT underlines a long section such as this, it is unlikely to have two choices that differ only in verb tense. That's too picayune a split.

Incidentally, smartguy595, in this sentence, "focused" is a full verb, a verb in the past tense. The word "aged" is purely a participle, a noun-modifier, not a full verb. It's very important to recognize the difference between participles and full verbs.

The truth is that this is not a particularly clean split. I think (D) sounds more natural, but one could certainly make a valid argument for (C). This is one of the ways that this question is not high quality. On a high quality question, one choice is correct and the other four are clearly wrong. On this question, (D) is correct and (C) is arguably correct also. Don't stress over this, thinking one must be absolutely right and one must be absolutely wrong. The question simply is not that good.

Here's a high quality SC question:
Balancing the need for

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)[/quote]


Thank you mike

will note above points marked by you..thank you very much :)
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Re: The study, called the National Lung Screening Trial, focused   [#permalink] 11 Apr 2016, 19:58
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