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Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants?

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Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 12:04
I just looked at some of the top MBA schools and recognised that each of them required a TOEFL and a GMAT for international students to apply. But actually, may I simply ask: why? I got a verbal 40 score as a non-native speaker and was in UK for a term abroad. I suppose my English is not that bad. Why is it necessary to take a TOEFL when your English was obviously tested in the GMAT? Do you know wether this is common for those universities or is it just a personal misconception?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 12:23
ethnix wrote:
I just looked at some of the top MBA schools and recognised that each of them required a TOEFL and a GMAT for international students to apply. But actually, may I simply ask: why? I got a verbal 40 score as a non-native speaker and was in UK for a term abroad. I suppose my English is not that bad. Why is it necessary to take a TOEFL when your English was obviously tested in the GMAT? Do you know wether this is common for those universities or is it just a personal misconception?

Thanks in advance.

GMAT is a test of your reasoning abilities. Sure grammar rules are tested, but GMAT is still not a language test. On the other hand, TOEFL is the test to check your language skills.every college decides what it wants in its student, and questioning this decision is rather questionable :-D
You might have got 40, but is it possible that you just had a great day. I'm sure colleges have their reasons to ask for an extra test as much as they have to ask for multiple essays, something that I personally don't like.
One more thing it is not uncommon in many countries to pass this test to get a student visa.
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 12:28
Instead of looking at the TOEFL as an unnecessary evil in the admissions process, start looking at it as another way to positively distinguish your candidacy. Based on your GMAT results, you should not have trouble with the test and should score quite high. If you do score as well as I anticipate, then you will further be distinguished among all non-native speakers.

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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 12:56
Vips0000 wrote:
every college decides what it wants in its student, and questioning this decision is rather questionable :-D


Indeed. Though I actually dislike the process. I know it is necessary to guarantee a level and especially to somehow regulate the application market, but - as it always seems to me with such formal application requirements - it closes doors and possibilities. I know work experience is helpful to provide a higher level of teaching in such a programme in general, but this excludes young students who try to gain entrepreneurial knowledge in order to start up fast. People who have worked for years and who are probably send by a company to gain a MBA are more likely to be committed to their work and probably entrepreneurship will bare higher risks for them. It's getting a bit off-topic, sry. But thanks for the information. I just wonder wether such a programme is actually even worth it, assuming that ambitious students with an entrepreneurial mindset actually strive for starting something on their own quite earlier than till they are 29 and have worked five years in consulting or whatever. And i think many Ivy's here miss to attract people with those obligations who they actually, out of their historical paradigms, should aim at. I wonder wether this is the reason why the list of Ivy league dropouts sounds quite more interesting than those of their alumni....
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 13:06
ethnix wrote:
I wonder wether this is the reason why the list of Ivy league dropouts sounds quite more interesting than those of their alumni....

Probably we know only those dropouts who made it big. So I wouldn't draw such a conclusion.

Anyway, as far as ur concern of closing doors and limiting opportunity is, the good news is that colleges are actually quite flexible about these requirements, provided u r genuinely interested and they are interested in u. I received a toefl waiver for my Cornell application because I dint have time for it and wanted to submit app in time.
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 13:07
ethnix wrote:
I just looked at some of the top MBA schools and recognised that each of them required a TOEFL and a GMAT for international students to apply. But actually, may I simply ask: why? I got a verbal 40 score as a non-native speaker and was in UK for a term abroad. I suppose my English is not that bad. Why is it necessary to take a TOEFL when your English was obviously tested in the GMAT? Do you know wether this is common for those universities or is it just a personal misconception?

Thanks in advance.


Most top MBA dont need a TOEFL if you
1) have a post-grad degree from a U.S. university
or
2)Have considerable work experience in an English speaking country.

But there are some schools that still need a TOEFL for internationals no matter what (e.g Berkeley, USC )
If you have 40 Verbal in GMAT , dont sweat about the TOEFL at all. Honestly TOEFL is a piece of cake.
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 13:16
ManhattanReview wrote:
Instead of looking at the TOEFL as an unnecessary evil in the admissions process, start looking at it as another way to positively distinguish your candidacy. Based on your GMAT results, you should not have trouble with the test and should score quite high. If you do score as well as I anticipate, then you will further be distinguished among all non-native speakers.

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I respectfully disagree with you here. I highly doubt that a high TOEFL score will have any bearing on your candidacy given how easy the test is.
TOEFL is honestly an unnecessary evil and should not be required at all. Most top MBA schools realize this (e.g MIT)
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 14:06
Zynga wrote:
I respectfully disagree with you here. I highly doubt that a high TOEFL score will have any bearing on your candidacy given how easy the test is.
TOEFL is honestly an unnecessary evil and should not be required at all. Most top MBA schools realize this (e.g MIT)


Exactly. A friend of mine also did the TOEFL some years ago, without experience abroad and he is/was probably my level - scored 115 or so. I do not really get why I need to pay some extra money on a certificate that won't certify anything further than the GMAT did. Honestly, people who fail to get the 90 or 100 Toefl points won't score high in the GMAT. Imo it would be so much easier, if you just applied with your gpa, your gmat and one sheet of paper in which you really need to put some good argumentation skills; afterwards you can make more interviews but keep them shorter. I especially have the confidence in the committees to quickly realise who can make it, or at least who definitely can't make it. Reading motivation letters does not give you a piece of a clue how much the person is motivated as when you talk to him or her.
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 19:13
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Vips0000 wrote:
ethnix wrote:
I just looked at some of the top MBA schools and recognised that each of them required a TOEFL and a GMAT for international students to apply. But actually, may I simply ask: why? I got a verbal 40 score as a non-native speaker and was in UK for a term abroad. I suppose my English is not that bad. Why is it necessary to take a TOEFL when your English was obviously tested in the GMAT? Do you know wether this is common for those universities or is it just a personal misconception?

Thanks in advance.

GMAT is a test of your reasoning abilities. Sure grammar rules are tested, but GMAT is still not a language test. On the other hand, TOEFL is the test to check your language skills.every college decides what it wants in its student, and questioning this decision is rather questionable :-D
You might have got 40, but is it possible that you just had a great day. I'm sure colleges have their reasons to ask for an extra test as much as they have to ask for multiple essays, something that I personally don't like.
One more thing it is not uncommon in many countries to pass this test to get a student visa.



I do not think so, at al :-D ............

Secondly I disagree with those that think Toefl is a piece of cake. Sure is not adaptive, I pick almost 13 question out of 14 in each RC for instance but why worldwide (native and non native ) the average score is less than 90 (88 precisely) and the schools want at least 100 with a good score in writing and speaking ??

It is not properly a stroll................

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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 20:52
Most schools do not require a TOEFL if your undergraduate course was entirely in English..
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 22:46
MacFauz wrote:
Most schools do not require a TOEFL if your undergraduate course was entirely in English..

Yes that's fine, but I wasn't ;) There are some people out there who really take their courses in their native language which must not be English even if you attempt to got the US afterwards :P

Well Toefl might not be in general as easy as possible, but to argue with the average score is difficult. We are talking about Ivy League applicants, but TOEFL is taken by a large number of students, simply applying for a bachelor's programme with a obligatory term abroad e.g. So in general I would suppose Toefl test takers are on average less prepared and worse English speaker than GMAT applicants. GMAT is necessary almost only for English speaking programmes. I'm for example German. The average score for German Toefl Takers was 96 in 2011. And hell I know all the people that take that test and that most take those tests when they come from high school, most of all without any experience abroad. So I don't see a reason why this qualifies you to speak an adequate English for Ivy while GMAT doesn't. At least they could substitute the Toefl for those who had a score of xy in verbal or something. The redundancy of tests does not help anyone, especially not the committees.
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 23:07
ethnix wrote:
MacFauz wrote:
Most schools do not require a TOEFL if your undergraduate course was entirely in English..

Yes that's fine, but I wasn't ;) There are some people out there who really take their courses in their native language which must not be English even if you attempt to got the US afterwards :P

Well Toefl might not be in general as easy as possible, but to argue with the average score is difficult. We are talking about Ivy League applicants, but TOEFL is taken by a large number of students, simply applying for a bachelor's programme with a obligatory term abroad e.g. So in general I would suppose Toefl test takers are on average less prepared and worse English speaker than GMAT applicants. GMAT is necessary almost only for English speaking programmes. I'm for example German. The average score for German Toefl Takers was 96 in 2011. And hell I know all the people that take that test and that most take those tests when they come from high school, most of all without any experience abroad. So I don't see a reason why this qualifies you to speak an adequate English for Ivy while GMAT doesn't. At least they could substitute the Toefl for those who had a score of xy in verbal or something. The redundancy of tests does not help anyone, especially not the committees.


I understand your situation.. Anyway, to my knowledge anyone who is able to hold a proper formal conversation in good english will not have any problem tackling the TOEFL. As far as the logic behind requiring a TOEFL is concerned, its a matter of uniformity and sometimes the truth is that there is no logic.

Below are some examples of people who are required to take the TOEFL and people who do not as per Stanford's requirements.

The following examples illustrate whether or not you are required to take the TOEFL-IELTS-PTE:
Xiaogu from China went to Beijing for his undergraduate degree. Since the language of instruction was Mandarin, he is required to take the TOEFL-IELTS-PTE.
Ning from China got her undergraduate degree in London and is not required to take the TOEFL-IELTS-PTE because the language of instruction was English.
James from the United Kingdom went to Germany for his undergraduate degree and is required to take the TOEFL-IELTS-PTE (even though he is a native English speaker) because the language of instruction at the university was German.
Suki from Japan received her undergraduate degree from a US college where the language of instruction was all in English and is therefore not required to take the TOEFL-IELTS-PTE.
Fayza from Pakistan went to school in Islamabad where the language of instruction at her university was entirely in English, therefore she is not required to take the TOEFL-IELTS-PTE.
Chin from China went to Shanghai for her undergraduate degree but then went to Sydney for a graduate degree. Chin is not required to take the TOEFL-IELTS-PTE because the TOEFL-IELTS-PTE requirement is waived for any applicant with an undergraduate or graduate degree from a university at which the sole language of instruction is English.

There is a really good chance that James' english is much superior than that of Fayza... But you can see the situation... :)
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 01 Feb 2013, 23:16
carcass wrote:
I do not think so, at al :-D ............

Well its a free world. As the cliche' goes -we can agree to disagree.
carcass wrote:
Secondly I disagree with those that think Toefl is a piece of cake. Sure is not adaptive, I pick almost 13 question out of 14 in each RC for instance but why worldwide (native and non native ) the average score is less than 90 (88 precisely) and the schools want at least 100 with a good score in writing and speaking ??
It is not properly a stroll................
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Yes. Just because average toefl score is less than 90, colleges would not admit students who are dumb spectators. Probably those collegs that mandatorily require TOEFL might have had such experiences.
Easy or not , it depends solely on current skill level. And as I mentioned, colleges do provide waivers.
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 02 Feb 2013, 01:55
MacFauz wrote:
There is a really good chance that James' english is much superior than that of Fayza... But you can see the situation... :)


Definitely. And that's one of the points i blame the application process for. They may have experienced problems, but I can hardly imagine someone scoring very well on the GMAT verbal in general can't speak a proper English. And I highly doubt wether this could be determined otherwise by the Toefl. Assuming that someone who does not speak English fluently, but scored well on the GMAT verbal, takes the Toefl, the most probable only thing he will be challenged is the speaking section. But if he scores well in all other parts, probably losing only 2 points eacht, he would still need only 15 points in the speaking section to drop out of the application criteria. I am not afraid to take it and the mentioned waivers are indeed a good hint, but I am getting a bit annoyed about universities making the application process more expensive, time-intensive and complicated than necessary (imo). I think the GMAT is a quite nice test, though not testing language skills in the same way as TOEFL does, but it definitely requires some English skills to compete in the verbal section for non-natives. If someone really has bad English skills in practice, they should note that in the interviews as well. So in total i think the risk to reject a student who had a nice verbal score, but has actually a lack of practical skills, in an interview is quite low. I know (probably almost) everyone here is not responsible for this policy, but at least I would not support it...
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 03 Feb 2013, 15:19
Hi guys, being an international applicant, I got a Toefl score of 112 in total but only 25 for listening. I scored over 28 each for the rest (speaking, writing and reading). Do I need to retake the test to raise the listening score if I want to apply a top 10 or even top 5 school?

I heard that those top schools are very strict about the listening score and normally require 26+ as it's a fundamental requirement for classes.

I would deeply appreciate it if any insiders could offer me an answer. Thanks very much!
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 03 Feb 2013, 15:48
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haiwen wrote:
Hi guys, being an international applicant, I got a Toefl score of 112 in total but only 25 for listening. I scored over 28 each for the rest (speaking, writing and reading). Do I need to retake the test to raise the listening score if I want to apply a top 10 or even top 5 school?

I heard that those top schools are very strict about the listening score and normally require 26+ as it's a fundamental requirement for classes.

I would deeply appreciate it if any insiders could offer me an answer. Thanks very much!


no way. it is more than sufficient.

moreover you have to consider in the application: gmat, essay, recommendation, and so on...........do not worry about at all
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Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants? [#permalink] New post 03 Feb 2013, 19:42
haiwen wrote:
Hi guys, being an international applicant, I got a Toefl score of 112 in total but only 25 for listening. I scored over 28 each for the rest (speaking, writing and reading). Do I need to retake the test to raise the listening score if I want to apply a top 10 or even top 5 school?

I heard that those top schools are very strict about the listening score and normally require 26+ as it's a fundamental requirement for classes.

I would deeply appreciate it if any insiders could offer me an answer. Thanks very much!


From my understanding, schools place more emphasis on speaking than listening. They want to see that you can communicate.

I think a score of 112 is more than sufficient, considering the averages of most top schools are around 100-110.

And as has been pointed out, TOEFL/GMAT is only one component of your application.

Good luck :)
Re: Toefl AND GMAT for international applicants?   [#permalink] 03 Feb 2013, 19:42
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