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Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY

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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 19:48
Errm...remember Reagan? Clinton, # 42? I don't recall them having extensive foreign policy experience prior to their presidencies. Didn't stop them from being effective presidents.

And I'm not sure being First Lady counts as being foreign policy experience either. If it were, Laura Bush should be among the foremost policy wonks in D.C. today.

togafoot wrote:
I think a lot of the rest of the world are unsure about Obama's experience, particularly in foreign policy.

Personally, I think he would make a better candidate next time round.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 19:52
I think the foreign policy experience is overblown. They will have so many cabinet members to deal with that. At least Obama wont disrespect the world like Bush seems to enjoy doing. As for Clinton, I think that there are more than a few countries that have no love for her. In the end I think Clinton is going to take it, and might have to give Obama the VP nod to seal it. Unless Gore teams up with someone its going to take a brokered convention.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 19:58
solaris1 wrote:
Errm...remember Reagan? Clinton, # 42? I don't recall them having extensive foreign policy experience prior to their presidencies. Didn't stop them from being effective presidents.

And I'm not sure being First Lady counts as being foreign policy experience either. If it were, Laura Bush should be among the foremost policy wonks in D.C. today.

togafoot wrote:
I think a lot of the rest of the world are unsure about Obama's experience, particularly in foreign policy.

Personally, I think he would make a better candidate next time round.


This is perception, not 'actual' ability :p. Yes i remember Reagan, in the UK he was lumped with Thatcher and was often labelled a bumbling fool in UK media.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 20:00
riverripper wrote:
I think the foreign policy experience is overblown. They will have so many cabinet members to deal with that. At least Obama wont disrespect the world like Bush seems to enjoy doing. As for Clinton, I think that there are more than a few countries that have no love for her. In the end I think Clinton is going to take it, and might have to give Obama the VP nod to seal it. Unless Gore teams up with someone its going to take a brokered convention.

im with river. you dont need to have led bain capital to know how to run a country. you will have capable advisors. we should elect the person with the best judgment.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 20:05
riverripper wrote:
Prodigy wrote:
I have a question to people who support Obama wholeheartedly: Why?


Why not...you have your beliefs I have mine. I believe women arent retarded and can decide what to do with their own bodies?


Whoa River, maybe I should have been more specific with my question. I'm not asking why you're a liberal, I was asking why Obama specifically. I'm not going to get into discussing all the nitty gritty points on different issues (though I do think you are seriously misrepresenting a lot of republican/conservative stances). Those arguments have been going on for who knows how long and they don't usually end in compromise.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 20:09
dabots wrote:
im with river. you dont need to have led bain capital to know how to run a country. you will have capable advisors. we should elect the person with the best judgment.


How do you determine the person with the best judgment if they don't have an extensive record of achievement? Or are people just going based on his Iraq vote?

[BTW, I'm generally not trying to be sarcastic or rude, so please take all my questions here to be sincere]
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 20:17
Well yes, the Iraq vote does carry a lot of weight for me. As does the fact that the president of the Harvard Law Review chose to forego (unlike Hillary) what would have been a very lucrative career in corporate law or something else like that to work as a community organizer.

Obviously his ideas on healthcare, transparency of government etc. are also appealing. In any case, any discourse about "achievement" is really going to be very relative.

Prodigy wrote:
dabots wrote:
im with river. you dont need to have led bain capital to know how to run a country. you will have capable advisors. we should elect the person with the best judgment.


How do you determine the person with the best judgment if they don't have an extensive record of achievement? Or are people just going based on his Iraq vote?

[BTW, I'm generally not trying to be sarcastic or rude, so please take all my questions here to be sincere]
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 20:52
solaris1 wrote:
Well yes, the Iraq vote does carry a lot of weight for me. As does the fact that the president of the Harvard Law Review chose to forego (unlike Hillary) what would have been a very lucrative career in corporate law or something else like that to work as a community organizer.


I hear this frequently, which irritates me enough, but I've also heard it directly from the mouth of Obama... something that saddens me greatly. If you choose to dedicate yourself to a life of service, then do so without the "you owe me" attitude. Whenever I hear this it sounds like "I gave up a great job to help you poor folks, so you better be grateful (by voting for me) because I didn't have to do this!" Maybe that's not how he means it, but this sentiment seems implicit whenever I hear this statement.

To me (and I'm not trying to indict you or anyone else of anything), this says more about the individuals who take note of it. This attitude is my core problem with liberalism. People want to help, sure, but many don't want to help bad enough to actually make sacrifices and do it on their own. Enter big government. I'll concede that there are MANY republicans who just don't care at all, but at least conservatism embraces the power of the individual to make change... while preserving an individuals dignity through self-reliance.

If I were still liberal minded, I'd likely be looking to go to law school so I could push the government to do something about poverty in this country. Instead I've set out to do something myself, and I can assure you, I will never act as if some debt is owed to me because I decided to help my community with my Ivy League degree.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 20:56
Prodigy wrote:
dabots wrote:
im with river. you dont need to have led bain capital to know how to run a country. you will have capable advisors. we should elect the person with the best judgment.


How do you determine the person with the best judgment if they don't have an extensive record of achievement? Or are people just going based on his Iraq vote?

[BTW, I'm generally not trying to be sarcastic or rude, so please take all my questions here to be sincere]

im not completely sold on obama, but i do believe he is an intelligent and reasonable person. i am also considering a vote for mccain.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 21:08
Umm....see Jack Ryan, 2004 Republican candidate for the U.S. Senator from Illinois. (Ironically, for the seat that Obama has now.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ryan_ ... _candidate)
Read his biography. Also to note: His campaign commercials not-so-subtly pointed out that he "gave up his investment banking job to teach in inner city schools." I would know... I had to watch them for months.

Prodigy wrote:
solaris1 wrote:
Well yes, the Iraq vote does carry a lot of weight for me. As does the fact that the president of the Harvard Law Review chose to forego (unlike Hillary) what would have been a very lucrative career in corporate law or something else like that to work as a community organizer.


I hear this frequently, which irritates me enough, but I've also heard it directly from the mouth of Obama... something that saddens me greatly. If you choose to dedicate yourself to a life of service, then do so without the "you owe me" attitude. Whenever I hear this it sounds like "I gave up a great job to help you poor folks, so you better be grateful (by voting for me) because I didn't have to do this!" Maybe that's not how he means it, but this sentiment seems implicit whenever I hear this statement.

To me (and I'm not trying to indict you or anyone else of anything), this says more about the individuals who take note of it. This attitude is my core problem with liberalism. People want to help, sure, but many don't want to help bad enough to actually make sacrifices and do it on their own. Enter big government. I'll concede that there are MANY republicans who just don't care at all, but at least conservatism embraces the power of the individual to make change... while preserving an individuals dignity through self-reliance.

If I were still liberal minded, I'd likely be looking to go to law school so I could push the government to do something about poverty in this country. Instead I've set out to do something myself, and I can assure you, I will never act as if some debt is owed to me because I decided to help my community with my Ivy League degree.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 21:14
Here's something you posted on another thread, Prodigy.

Basically, I want to erase the barriers of social mobility so that everyone (in America at LEAST) who works hard can actually achieve the American Dream, regardless of his or her background.

I thought it was fantastic you felt that way. Did it feel fantastic because I felt you "I owed you" for being a soon-to be MBA who was so idealistic. No - it was fantastic because it was just refreshing to see people on an MBA board say something like that. Just as it is refreshing to see one of the smartest kids at Harvard Law return to his hometown and dedicate a life to the community.

And yes, it IS refreshing to see someone quit a job in investment banking and teach kids.

I'm sorry, but I think you were just being a tad presumptuous in that last post. I think most adults should be able to make their own judgments about when somebody does something just to garner brownie points, and when someone is genuinely trying to contribute to the greater good.

Prodigy wrote:
I hear this frequently, which irritates me enough, but I've also heard it directly from the mouth of Obama... something that saddens me greatly. If you choose to dedicate yourself to a life of service, then do so without the "you owe me" attitude. Whenever I hear this it sounds like "I gave up a great job to help you poor folks, so you better be grateful (by voting for me) because I didn't have to do this!" Maybe that's not how he means it, but this sentiment seems implicit whenever I hear this statement.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 05 Feb 2008, 21:18
ApolloLuna wrote:
Umm....see Jack Ryan, 2004 Republican candidate for the U.S. Senator from Illinois. (Ironically, for the seat that Obama has now.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ryan_ ... _candidate)
Read his biography. Also to note: His campaign commercials not-so-subtly pointed out that he "gave up his investment banking job to teach in inner city schools." I would know... I had to watch them for months.


Oh, I don't doubt that there are Republicans who have that attitude... I find it equally repugnant regardless of the letter that follows the name. Truthfully, there's a lot about the republican party that I just don't like. But they are the closest to conservative values on a slew of issues, so I have to deal with reality if I want to participate in our government.

Quote:
'm sorry, but I think you were just being a tad presumptuous in that last post. I think most adults should be able to make their own judgments about when somebody does something just to garner brownie points, and when someone is genuinely trying to contribute to the greater good.


I guess I'm left to wonder where I said that other people have to agree with my interpretation of that. I've always been taught that you give without expecting to receive anything back. You give because it is the right thing to do. This whole "i gave up that to do this" is like having someone do you a favor one time, then having them remind you over and over that they helped you out once. I'm sure you can see how that might be irritating. Anyway, that's just how I feel.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 04:23
If I was to vote for who would be best for me professionally I would have to go with a republican since I aim to return to nuclear power post MBA and that is one industry the right supports far more than the left. However, I vote for my beliefs...I can't just say one issue seals the deal. In reality pretty much any guy/gal from one side or the other is going to do the same thing as the rest of their party. They have so many people giving them advice that they may give the basic position but then its developed by huge staffs. So in reality Obama and Clinton are probably going to work for the same things, probably in slightly different ways but the same.

Despite my working for the military I think our spending on the military in many areas is enormously wasteful. While, my parents work in education and its amazing how crappy the funding is in many schools...especially poor urban areas where kids would benefit greatly from a strong education system. Instead of wasting money on a pointless war that is basically done to try to make people feel better that we were doing SOMETHING post 9/11 we could be putting 250 billion a year into improving our education system. In 50 years which do you think would have the greater impact on where america is.

We need a fundamental change in the way we work...republicans have done a horrible job with our country and you cant deny that. Yes things were better under Clinton but he shouldnt get 100% of the credit for its success and the resulting the dot com bust. Obama I think brings something to the table that actually makes his "lack" of experience better...he isnt someone who has spent their entire life in washington. I would like to think that he will be more like a Kennedy personality than a Bush. The world pretty much hates us, laughs at us, or pities us these days. We have fallen behind in so many areas in a short period of time. We have terrible healthcare for everyone but the well to do, education system is bordering on pathetic, heck our entire country is decaying...everything from roads to bridge to waste water treatment and power supplies.

If we ever want to fix these we are going to have to tax people...republicans wont want to do that so these things will keep getting cut so we can build more tanks to send to Iraq to be blown up. We complain about how bad our taxes are but they are far less than they once were...instead of wasting billions on bullets we could be spending billions researching fuel efficient stuff to make us energy independent. Spend our money on things that bring a return...like the space race which trickled down tons of scientific improvements into everyday living.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 06:06
I'm a registered republican, but consider myself more of an independent. For me, it's either McCain or Obama. I think a McCain/Obama race would be uber-exciting. I think most republicans would welcome a McCain/Clinton race, because the chances of winning are greater. As long as it isn't Hillary, I'll be happy.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 06:21
I know this will raise hackles but I'm voting third party if Obama doesn't get the Dem. nomination.

I am desperately hoping to be a full fledged citizen by the time the summer is over.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 06:26
I come from a long line of Navy sea captains, and in addition to all of the many solid points that have been made in the thread thus far, I will be considering whether or not a particular candidate has some respect for the military. Don't get me wrong - I'm no hawk, nor as it happens, are my family members - but what was most profoundly disturbing to me about this whole Iraq mess was the current administration's disdain for our military commanders. Politicians appear to want nothing but "yes-men" and "yes-women" surrounding them. You can't keep justifying removing decorated, experienced war veterans from a command post because you don't like the truth they are telling you! That seems jaw-droppingly illogical to me.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 06:26
Obviously I cannot vote, but I follow the electoral race closely. There was an article in Vanity Fair (dont laugh just yet) by Joseph Stiglitz, professor at Columbia.

It doesnt really deal with the candidates but rather the situation the US is in right now and who is to blame for that (George WB and his administration)

Great reading, I just googled it again and this is it:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... bush200712



Probably most Americans also know that Bush is fervently hated by most Europeans. People in my country are longing for a change in the US, and 8 years of Bush rule have made us see the Republicans as equally "bad" as Bush, so I'd say many people here dont differentiate anymore and are hoping for a democrat-president. (obviously this is just my opinion and merely a sentiment)

Personally, I find Obama incredibly inspiring. He speaks powerfully, is incredibly sharp (what a contrast to your current president) and seems independent and analytical enough to do the right thing - despite maybe lacking experience. I would love to see him become president.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 06:41
Branson I think you are right...Republicans = Bush in most people's minds around the world. Much like Putin and Blair were the face of their parties.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 06:42
branson wrote:
Personally, I find Obama incredibly inspiring. He speaks powerfully, is incredibly sharp (what a contrast to your current president) and seems independent and analytical enough to do the right thing - despite maybe lacking experience. I would love to see him become president.


Pretty much my thoughts. If it isn't McCain, then I want Obama. He's fresh, inspiring, and will help boost american morale and our image around the world. I don't agree with many of his stands on issues, but I do agree with his passion for the country.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 08:45
riverripper wrote:
We have terrible healthcare for everyone but the well to do, education system is bordering on pathetic, heck our entire country is decaying...everything from roads to bridge to waste water treatment and power supplies.

If we ever want to fix these we are going to have to tax people...republicans wont want to do that so these things will keep getting cut so we can build more tanks to send to Iraq to be blown up. We complain about how bad our taxes are but they are far less than they once were...instead of wasting billions on bullets we could be spending billions researching fuel efficient stuff to make us energy independent. Spend our money on things that bring a return...like the space race which trickled down tons of scientific improvements into everyday living.


Oh River, now you've gone and touched on my favorite subject. But first let me say that I respect and really like that most Dems want to help people. If that were the only issue I'd be a democrat too. But let's look at the reality of many of these liberal policies.

Democrats wanted to provide housing to the poor. Result: The projects... now serving as black market pharmacies.
Democrats wanted to give financial benefits to the poor. Result: The Pre and Post Clinton welfare system which effectively took black men(fathers) out of the equation. So today the out of wedlock birth rate in the black comm. is anywhere from 70 to 90% in some inner cities.
Democrats wanted to punish crack possession more heavily because the truth is that it IS more destructive than cocaine. Result: Hundreds of thousands of black and latino men jailed for years with little chance at reforming their lives.
(I focus on the stats for the black and latino communities because that's what I'm most familiar with)

There is also the issue of the dependency that occurs with many of our poverty outreach programs. Take the bi-partisan screw up that was Katrina, and you see how bad things can get when an entire population is completely dependent on government to meet its most important needs. So no, I'm not ready to throw more tax money at the government so it can run some more misguided poverty experiments on poor people. I am shocked that so many people want to continue throwing more responsibilities at our notoriously inept government in the form of health care. No matter what side you are on, you can't elect the right people all the time.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. Insert appropriate cliche: The road to hell was paved with good intentions. You can't just say you want to do good while not actually doing good. I think there should be some help for the very poorest among us, but there should be many hoops to get it and it should be focused primarily on getting people back on their feet. Not taking over their responsibilites from cradle to grave.

But onto education... the issue here is NOT money. Why so many people think throwing money at this issue will make it better is beyond me. There are 3 issues that need tending to in order to make the schools better.
1. Culture 2. Curriculum 3. Constructivism and they need to be fixed in that order.

1. If you have kids that want to learn, you can teach them in a hut in Bangladesh or a dilapidated building in the South Bronx. If the kids want to learn, teachers will want to teach them. So much of the discussion about teacher's pay would be muted here... mainly because the teachers who teach in these areas are more concerned about helping students than getting six plus figures.
2. If the kids are all learning different things and the work isn't cumulative, rigorous, and relevant to the skills people will need in the real world, then it's going to be hard to get results. For those familiar with KIPP schools, this is one of their main problems with reading scores.
3. How do the teachers teach? Are the kids being taught to memorize their 1-12 times tables (few kids these days do) or are they given calculators by 4th grade? Do the teachers draw false dichotomies like "the kids need to learn to think instead of focusing so much on getting the right answer?" Do the kids spend more time doing projects and portfolios instead of mastering material? The phonics vs. whole word reading debate is largely over, but the fact that it took so long to resolve (and the fact that some people still insist that whole word is equally effective) is a testament to the bureaucratic nonsense that takes place in our public schools system.

Almost any problem in our schools has to do with people failing to address at least one of these points, or by trying to do them out of order. So then what will make kids want to learn? Well, I'm keeping that part a secret for now :wink:
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