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Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY

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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 19:34
Aha...so that's the reason behind the $400 hammers we keep hearing about. :-D

Just messing with you thunderdogg.

thunderdogg wrote:
We do not however, ever buy anything from a local hardware store, this is naval nuclear work man, home depot or lowes is not up to code. even for temporary stuff.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 19:53
solaris1 wrote:
Aha...so that's the reason behind the $400 hammers we keep hearing about. :-D

Just messing with you thunderdogg.

thunderdogg wrote:
We do not however, ever buy anything from a local hardware store, this is naval nuclear work man, home depot or lowes is not up to code. even for temporary stuff.


haha, dude, no offense taken. if we were allowed to buy from a local hardware store, you're right, $400 hammers would quickly be a thing of the past! alas, big government won't allow that, and your tax dollars suffer. but don't worry, bigger government is probably the solution.

:wink:

-ps You guys, regardless of our differing political views, all genuinely seem like nice people who are all being extremely helpful in the forums. So if i said something you foundd "rude" or in the wrong tone, it is unintended. We all enjoy a little spirited debate, or else you wouldn't be reading this drivel.

Last edited by thunderdogg on 06 Feb 2008, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 19:58
Thunder, I order a lot of stuff and see that stuff is expensive but you have to realize that its not just the government that pays those rates. Anything involved with nuclear systems or this type of work is outrageous because not many people make the stuff that meets the specs. I have friends that work at powerplants and they have the same issues with ordering a valve that should cost $500 but since it needs to go into a nuc system it costs $40k. Government waste may be a problem in someways but its not like it was years ago. From what I hear in the office, they used to buy 100K worth of materials in the 80s they wouldnt get used then it would go into a dumpster. No way that would happen today...yes stuff is pricey but we use it. I am not an SRE, so I do real work and order plenty of materials. I definitely see overpriced shipboard equipment but stuff not going into the subs we have plenty of leeway. I use the same catalogs to order parts and tools that my buddies who work in industry. The problem are the super specialized one of a kind items that require a premium.

Government waste is a problem but overall its vastly improved from the days of 500 hammers and 20k toilet seats. The real problem is the millions they supply for pet projects, like some stupid stamp museum. At least the insane prices we spend go to american companies haha. I agree with wasteful spending and there needs to be more accountability but your paying 20% premiums for parts arent the problem that paying triple the price of the construction contract on a new sub or carrier. Judging by my friends that work for general dynamics we are far less wasteful...

For our equipment that has nothing to do with subs I order from local supply shops all the time...heck if we have a pressing need for something like a fuse for a power supply for a piece of equipment I can send a shop guy to the hardware store outside the gate. It happens quite often. I think since I dont do as much ordering for ship specific things that is where the difference is. My stuff is used to service the ship not to get installed.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 20:47
I just hope the democrat race ends conclusively rather than a fluke vote :roll: . The last thing i want is a republican in the office due to division of democrat votes :?
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 06 Feb 2008, 22:26
thunderdogg wrote:
blaming filibusters? that's quite an amazing thing, did congress and the senate just learn of this technique? Come on, you could say that about any congress and any president. "well they didn't get stuff accomplished because although they're they majority, the minority used filibusters." or "the majority just isn't major enough"...sounds more like excuses to me. But we've obviously got different vantage points.

I wouldn't classify a time line for troop withdrawal to be a very "original" idea that the democrats came up with, and yes we all know Bush is extremely anti stem cell research and has been for 8 years, i'm sure numerous stem cell related bills have been shot down or died in progress multiple times of the last few years, again nothing new and "change oriented". As for "threats" of vetoes, if that's enough to turn away the "change oriented" democrats, man..... We're probably going to have differing views on what would be considered a "major bill" to veto, while i'm not considering the $600 tax rebate bill a major bills, some may, and again it has nothing to do with "change", unless you're implying that democrats are all about tax rebates now?


As I said before, I'm *not* going to debate whether Democrats or Republicans are better/correct on this forum. I'm only going to debate the assumption that you brought up, and that is "no veto of major bills = no change".

I broke that up into three parts, since I noticed that you picked and chose parts of my argument that favored your opinion and misinterpret them.

No Vetos:

There are no vetos because even though Democrats have a majority, the filibuster stopped some major bills in the Senate. I don't see how this constitutes as "blaming the filibuster". It's just a fact of how our government works. You said there were not many vetoes, and I pointed out that the reason is because there is a procedural hurdle called the filibuster so that even if the change can be pushed through by the majority, it will still die in the senate if it doesn't have enough votes.

Also, I never said filibuster is only a Republican or Democrat tool, I know it's been there for a long while now, and I know it's been used by both parties to gain an advantage. I'm only pointing out that when the Republicans were in charge, they threatened to remove the filibuster for certain issues (Supreme Court Justice confirmation), but the Democrats (so far) have not threatened to remove the filibuster for any issues. Please respect my level of intelligence in terms of my understanding of the complexities of my own government.

As for "threats" turning away "change-oriented" democrats, again, you twist the truth. The veto threats turned away "change oriented" Republicans, causing the filibuster to hold in the Senate for the bills I mentioned that didn't go through. It definitely passed the House (Hate Crimes bill), yet died in the Senate because of the "threats". I don't think it was because the Democrats got "scared away" (again misinterpreting what I said), as it did get a majority vote, just not th 60 votes they needed to end debate. Even if it passed, Bush would have vetoed it. All I'm bringing up is the fact that some of these other "Major bills" would have been vetoed by Bush if it weren't for the filibuster, as I'm trying to answer your "no vetos of major bills" argument. Bush doesn't need to veto because bills don't get pass the Senate, and that has nothing to do with Democrats not pushing for "change".

Change:

Did I ever say the troop withdrawl and stem cell research bills are "original?" No, I didn't. I said they were "change". Please do not equate "change" with being "original." This was never about "being original". Just because something is not "original" does not mean it didn't try to cause "change." Change, in my mind, only means "going a different direction than we went before", and that's pretty much what the Democrats have tried to do.

"Major Bills":

I offered you things I consider "major bills" that Bush as vetoed. Whether you believe they are "major bills" or not is something I have no control over with. You also left out the anti-torture/surveillance bill, Child Health Care bill, the Employment Non Discrimination Act, and the Hate Crimes bill as "major" bills of "change"... not original, but change nonetheless.

"Implying at democrats are all about tax rebates now?" - thunderdogg, you know exactly what I meant by bring up those examples. Did I say or imply Democrats are all about tax rebates? No, I'm just saying it's part of what the Democrats tried to push through that's "change" from what Bush has been doing. Again, you misinterpret the words I wrote.

thunderdogg wrote:
We'll chalk it all up to regional brainwashing? I mean we've got a guy from New England and another from California explaining the virtues of being a democrat, and a guy from Virginia (myself) not in agreement. Although Virginia is probably a battleground state this next election, it'd be harder to get more cliche' in terms of regions.


Wow, "regional brainwashing?" As much as you apologized for some comments being perceived as "rude", this is bordering offensive to me. I'm bringing up examples of bills that tried to change the status quo (my definition of "change"), without arguing whether the bills are good or bad (leaving out the partisan note), and it ends up being classified as "brainwashing?" Give me some credit here. If I wanted to show brainwashing, I would be saying things like, "Bush and the Republicans are completely wrong and evil for blocking stem cell research and pushing for aborition. That's just wrong and wrong and wrong." Did I say that? No.

I prefer a debate if my debate opponent argues each point I bring up logically, instead of using phrases that detract from the point (e.g. "blaming filibusters?" "Democrats scared away by the veto threat" "regional brainwashing" or "not a very original idea"). You use these "sensational" phrases even though none of them are either relevant to the debate nor true. If this is how the debate will go on (not actually debating the issues), or degenerate into partisan bickering, then I will gladly excuse myself from this thread. Like I said in the beginning, I have no interest in partisan debates on GMATClub.

P.S. Just wanted to add that this doesn't change how I view you (thunder) outside of this thread. I am still very happy to help with anything you need in the b-school process (and receive help, of course :P).
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 07 Feb 2008, 04:25
Moved to off topic...

Thunder, I think that people think of Massachusetts when they think of the Northeast. NH goes republican usually, went for Bush in 2000 and until last year had two republican senators. Maine also has two republican senators.

I think political views more often than not are a function of your environment but that has more to do with your parents than location. I know some diehard republicans living in Mass (I work with a few) and diehard democrats living in the bible belt.

Overall the government has a hard time getting anything major done. They love to fight each other for position...I mean come on the republicans spent years trying to get rid of Clinton instead of working on real issues. In a perfect world I am a libertarian since I agree with less govenment in a lot of issues. I am far from a supporter of wasteful programs like wellfare...in my mind if we are giving people money they should at least be put to work. There are plenty of things that someone with no skills can do in this country that needs to get done and the government pays contractors huge salaries. Our defense budget is out of control...I dont mind spending big bucks researching and trying to come up with new technologies but some are completely useless. If we didnt have the war going on we could be developing things that eventually would work their way into everyday living. Computers, the internet, planes, radar, GPS nav, tons of things were really spurred on by government spending.

The filibuster is an interesting debate though since the Republicans wanted to get rid of it three years ago and now they are using it. I wonder what they would be saying now if it no longer existed...especially with a very good chance a democrat will be the next president.

Overall most politians are scummy, thats one of the very appealing things about Obama. He doesnt come across as shady as Romney or as cold and calculating as Hillary...he seems much more genuine. But even if I wanted a tax cutting nuclear supporting republican...I personally couldnt stomach their stances on abortion, global warming, religion and the government, stem cell research, the war, and all those other issues where my position is 180 degrees from the right's. No matter who the president ends up being there are still going to be 10s of billions attached to tons of bills for pet projects...the republicans increased that far more than the democrats ever did when you look at it. Thats where the real problem lies, wasting money on tons of useless stuff instead of focusing it where it would do the most good.

Do we need to pay 20 million a year for logging in some national forest in alaska when half the wood doesnt sell and the rest sells for 1/20th of what it costs us to cut it because of the "management" of the forest. This is done to help a small local economy that used to survive on logging...we could pay those people 5 times what they make logging to sit around and do nothing. All because of the huge amount of waste in how its managed.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 07 Feb 2008, 15:12
i brought up your comment on filibusters because it seems very irrelevant. the point is that we Americans largely voted for change two years ago in congress and not much has come from that. For you to say one of the main reasons this new "change" congress has been so ineffective is because of filibusters is in my opinion a poor argument. Filibusters aren't a new thing, they've been around for years, they've existed for effective and ineffective congresses alike. I'm sure if we had a record of every congress ever then we'd see throughout history the use of filibusters to kill legislation all the time.

When i think of change i don't view a lot of those veto'd bills as big change items. Getting the troops in iraq and the middle east home safely and as quickly as possible is not just a democrat feeling, that's why you're timetable "big change" bill really isn't about change at all. Everybody wants that to happen, it's not a change, republicans and democrats alike are trying to sort out what the best method, time-line, and strategy will be. GW did not kill a "change" bill, he killed the idea of a time table, i don't see that as a big change. Ron Paul wanting to withdraw all the troops immediately, i'd say that qualifies as a "big change". Maybe you view the time table as a significant change, we'd have to disagree on that. I would lump the hate crimes bill in that same category, i don't think that's a significant "change" i think most everybody in the USA would agree that discrimination, hatred, and hurting (physically and psychologically) individuals because of there disability or sexual orientation status is both wrong and immoral. Again since this is something i think almost everybody agrees on, this isn't a change, the disagreement comes in whether or not it needs to be codified in law. Anti-racism and sexism laws and rules / regs were needed though because women and blacks were clearly and boldly denied rights and access to jobs, schools, restaurants, etc. and had organizations such as the KKK out to do harm.. this isn't quite the case with these new groups and codifying it is the debate. I don't classify "codification of anti-harmful words towards others" to be a major change, most people are against that. The "employment non-discrimination act" applies in almost the same manner as the previous in my opinion, and it's impact is sooooo small on a national scale (just the gay community) that again i don't view it as "major". Somehow i'm sure you'll think that means i don't respect the gay community (calling it small, implying it's insignificant or something), i'm not, i'm just saying, with regards to issues and problems like the economy, the war, and energy policy i do tend to view this is a lower tier issue in my opinion.

i don't know much about the torture/survillence bill, and i don't know much about the childs health care bill except that it seems very much like a "patch" bill and not something that really addresses the root problem that needs "change". I don't view free money as "change", especially when this type of health coverage with regards to dental care already exists and is totally underused by those exact people this bill would target. THe change would be to work on helping those individuals achieve enough skills/knowledge to get a job that offers healthcare, or something of that nature, not giving free money. In my opinion that'll never be change.

Like i said in my post, our argument is clearly going to be over what is and isn't a major issue. I'm sorry that you needed me to spell that out in more detail for you, i thought i was pretty clear when i said that in the previous post, but i'm sure u just wanted to debate some more! and that's okay.

Sorry that you took offense to the regional comment, non was intended, maybe it came off wrong, but i put as much heat on myself with the statement as i did you.

river, with regards to govt work, the material we use and pay highly for has it's prices for a reason, you're right, i would argue that reason too much government involvment and that itis largely due to ridiculously silly specs that need to be met and force companies to spend a fortune to meet them, and while it's true it applies to all the nuclear components we use, it also applies to things like desk chairs which is absurd. i do agree though that this is by in large not our big inefficiency, but it's far to difficult to explain them to a group who doesn't know the situtations we're involved in, so calling out the extremely high priced "hammers" is an easy way to make a point.

Another easy way to make the same type of point is that i've only known a single person to be "asked to quit" aka fired in my 5 years working for the DoD, and i'd be shocked if you knew more than a handful yourself. You can always hope that a very secure position doesn't lead to laziness, wasn't communisium sorta based on that? But i think in the govt, it tends to breed laziness and in a lot of our culture it's now staunchly ingrained.
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Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY [#permalink] New post 10 Feb 2008, 14:28
Just thought I'd add this to the education part of the discussion... particularly for people who don't know anything about the American education system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDg4U2jYXgw
Re: Totally of topic...but SUPER TUESDAY   [#permalink] 10 Feb 2008, 14:28
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