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Usage of That - Doubt

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 06 Apr 2013, 05:29
egmat wrote:
Himanshu, please do not get in the habit of finding such mechanical defects. Believe me if you are preparing the right way, you should not have to think about mechanical defects over logic. This is THE ONE thing that I warn the students about. You are all logical analytical minded people. So why do you shy away from using logic. Why do you feel that rote learning of rules and exceptions is better. Why did you have to find a mechanical defect in choice B when it is blatantly wrong on the other more obvious fronts. And if those fronts are not obvious to you, then instead of finding alternate ways, work on making sure that the fronts that matter become more obvious to you...
Excuse me if I went beyond the scope of the question asked, but I feel you are getting to the stage of "analysis paralysis".


Thanks Payal for the wonderful piece of advice.

I know that Sentence Correction is all about Meaning, Logic and Concision. However, sometimes the meaning is not too apparent from the sentence, and one may fall into trap of changing the Author's intended meaning.

For example, please take a look on the below OG question:
Verbal Guide Question 82

Downzoning, zoning that typically results in the reduction of housing density, allows for more open space in areas where little water or services exist.

I have gone through your explanation on this question, and you were able to discern the meaning in the first go itself that downzoning results into areas where little water and fewer services exist. Now, while attempting this question for the first time, it would not be too apparent for me to use AND, I would have shied away from using the same, since to me it would have been a change in meaning.

Similar Question -
In theory, international civil servants at the United Nations are prohibited from continuing to draw salaries from their own governments; in practice, however, some governments merely substitute living allowances for their employees' paychecks, assigned by them to the United Nations.

Again, how one can be sure that the author would not like to talk about Paychecks but employees.

(A) for their employees™ paychecks, assigned by them
(B) for the paychecks of their employees who have been assigned

Both Choices are grammatically correct, and I know that you cannot assign paychecks to someone. You can grant someone paychecks but not assign. But, when cases like above appears, it make me nervous as to which one to go for. That is why I usually go for other workaround to make sure that the choice is incorrect for other reasons.

Any thoughts on how to answer such questions confidently.
Thanks
H

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 06 Apr 2013, 06:07
Quote:
I would have shied away from using the same, since to me it would have been a change in meaning.


i guess change of meaning is allowed as long as the original sentence gives a very weird meaning .honestly every question has its own trick for the instance in the question that u have quoted option A and B are flouting the very basic of countable and non countable thing .we can have few services but little services is wrong i guess !! as for ur thing that u were thinking that "and" was giving a shift of meaning i dont think that is true. the decider was not really "and" or "or"
i guess payal has rightly said that its better if we dont make our approach very perfunctory i can explain u why----> at times we loose the plot if our approach is mechanical --->we tend to loose the meaning thing if we go a lot by rules and grammar jargons .

Quote:
(A) for their employees™ paychecks, assigned by them
(B) for the paychecks of their employees who have been assigned

Both Choices are grammatically correct


i am not sure why u have said so
i read option A almost twice to decipher the meaning .B on the other hand gives me clear meaning in a simple language
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 06 Apr 2013, 11:00
@ Payal, I need help with this sentence which uses "that"

While Jackie Robinson was a Brooklyn Dodger, his courage in the face of physical threats and verbal attacks was not unlike that of Rosa Parks, who refused to move to the back of a bus seat in Montogomery, Alabama.

My doubt is:
Is "that" referring to noun/subject "courage" and thus following "unlike" (which otherwise precedes nouns)

I am confused with this sentence using "that" after unlike

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 07 Apr 2013, 08:37
Hi - yes that's correct the 'that' could be replaced with 'the courage'

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 07 Apr 2013, 09:31
Thanks Plumber.

To sum up the uses of "that"

1. Connecting 2 clauses (may be omitted if sentence meaning remains unaltered)
2. Replace subject (used as relative pronoun)
3. Object of verb (The study suggested that the world is flat - can you please explain the use of "that" as object of verb)
4. Object of clause

Can you please advise on any other uses of "that" also, please advise if my understanding is correct (as above)

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 07 Apr 2013, 09:51
Hi, one forum post on 'that' would take too long to be comprehensive.

For really general grammar questions like this I recommend using a standard Internet search.

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 07 Apr 2013, 10:46
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sdas wrote:
Thanks Plumber.

To sum up the uses of "that"

1. Connecting 2 clauses (may be omitted if sentence meaning remains unaltered)
2. Replace subject (used as relative pronoun)
3. Object of verb (The study suggested that the world is flat - can you please explain the use of "that" as object of verb)
4. Object of clause

Can you please advise on any other uses of "that" also, please advise if my understanding is correct (as above)



Hi sdas,

Here is my take on your questions. The below is the complete usage of "THAT" except one, however I haven't seen that usage in GMAT. I would advise you to stick on with below constructions only.

1- That as a Relative Pronoun - In this case, that will modify some noun, and that noun may work as either subject or object.

e.g 1 - This is the book that I love - > Here, that is working as Object of Clause. Ask, What do I love - > I love that book, Since book is the object, hence that is working as Object. In this, construction, you can remove "THAT" without any double thoughts.

e.g 2 - Car that is red in Color is mine. Now, here- that is working as Subject of Clause, as you can see there is no subject other than "that", which is associated with aux verb "IS". You can't Omit That, since it will result into Run on Sentence. Moreover, here that is working as Relative Pronoun only

I'm assuming that you know how to identify clauses, because the knowledge of identifying clauses helps in dissecting the "THAT" funda. If not, let me know.
2- Object of Verb- Here, that is used to connect two clauses.
Scientists believe that the universe started with a big bang.

Clause 1- Scientists believe
Connector ->" That "
Clause 2 - The universe started
In above sentence, you may remove THAT, but in GMAT land, I haven't seen such question in which "that" is removed from this construction.

Rather, believe that, propose that, contend that, these all are recommended usages

Hope this helps.

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 07 Apr 2013, 11:15
Hi himanshu, I am able to identify clauses. But where I am getting stuck is identifying "that" as object/subject of clause....

help much appreciated

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 07 Apr 2013, 19:04
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sdas wrote:
Hi himanshu, I am able to identify clauses. But where I am getting stuck is identifying "that" as object/subject of clause....

help much appreciated


Object of Clause- What does it mean? As name suggests, it means that "THAT" must be working as OBJECT of some clause. Normally, we have structure of sentence such as - Subject + Verb + Object. ---(A)
So, when "That" would be working as Object of clause, it will receive some type of action just as every object does.

Now,see the below sentence-

This is the book that I love - > Consider the part - That I love.. Now, that is referring to THE BOOK here, right.. because it is working as Relative Pronoun. so, the sentence becomes, Book I love ; and this is inverted construction. So, how will I say in normal language. I love the book.

Since, The BOOK = THAT(relative pronoun) - I am bringing some maths here---You may write - I love THAT ---(B)
Compare B with A -
Subject - I
Verb - Love
Object - THAT

Hence, THAT is working as Object

e.g 2 - Car that is red in Color is mine. Now, here- that is working as Subject of Clause, you may use the above funda for getting whether That is working as subject or not.
Break down into clause - Car is ; and That is; Here, THAT referring to Car
Try to find the subject of verb "IS" i.e WHAT is red in Color. answer -> CAR. Hence, The car is red in color

SO, in nutshell- THAT as object of Clause means- The noun to which that will be referring will work as Object, and in case of subject of CLause, it will be referring to subject.


If you are unable to get whether THAT is working as object or subject and you need to see if removing "THAT" will be correct or not, then the only golden rule is - if there are 2 clauses and each has its subject of its own, then removing that will not introduce error.

Let me know if something is unclear.

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 08 Apr 2013, 10:11
Thanks mate. Very helpful.
One last doubt, "that" also confuses in essential modifier, the example of car, is "that" not acting as modifier?If yes, then how can it both be modifier and refer to subject too?

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 08 Apr 2013, 18:26
sdas wrote:
Thanks mate. Very helpful.
One last doubt, "that" also confuses in essential modifier, the example of car, is "that" not acting as modifier?If yes, then how can it both be modifier and refer to subject too?


Hi sdas,

The answer lies in your question itself. "That" alone is referring to noun Car, but on the whole its a modifier. "That is red in color".

Whenever you are in doubt, go back to basics.

What is a Modifier - It gives some more/essential/non essential description about something. Now, the whole clause that is red in color is giving description about Car, but to see what "that" alone is referring to, you need to understand whether it is working as subject or object or clause.(Here, comes the understanding of finding object/subject) Also, Why we need to understand what that is referring to in order to make sure that subject verb must make sense and equivalent in number. such as - the verb in clause "that is red in color" is "IS"->this verb must make sense with "CAR", since that is referring to Car.

In the end, the reference of "THAT" is just telling you that i am going to modify this subject/ object, but its the whole clause that modifies the car.

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 09 Apr 2013, 04:58
Many thanks Himanshu. I am clear on it now.

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Re: Usage of That - Doubt   [#permalink] 09 Apr 2013, 04:58
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