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Usage of That - Doubt

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Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 03 Apr 2013, 06:36
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Hi Experts,

Request you to please post your reasoning on the below doubt-

I understand that "That" can work in the following ways -

Object of Verb -

example
He suggested that the world is flat.

Object of Clause
This is the bread that he loves

Doubt 1 -Now, here, as per my understanding we can remove "THAT". Can We ??
Doubt 2 - Is that working as Relative Pronoun over here?

Subject of Clause

This is the bread that is made of whole grain.
Doubt 3- Here, that is referring to bread. -> Is that working as Relative Pronoun?

I know these are silly doubts, but I believe that will help me in solving many of the SC's that I found confusing.

Once cleared, I will post SC where we can apply this concept in cracking that.

Thanks
H
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 03 Apr 2013, 06:50
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Hi Himanshu,

Please read our following article to learn about various usages of "that" and when they can be omitted and when they cannot be omitted:
learn-how-that-can-help-you-demystify-a-long-sentence-138358.html

If you still have doubts, do let us know.

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 03 Apr 2013, 07:07
egmat wrote:
Hi Himanshu,

Please read our following article to learn about various usages of "that" and when they can be omitted and when they cannot be omitted:
learn-how-that-can-help-you-demystify-a-long-sentence-138358.html

If you still have doubts, do let us know.

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.


Hi Payal,
The Summary posted above is the result of your article only, and subsequently the doubt as well. :-D

The only thing that I wanted to clarify is whether "That" can act as Realtive Pronoun when acting as both Object of thle clause as well as in Subject of the Clause.

I thought that I am good with "That" concept, but something in OG just threw me off.

This "That" thing is making me insane. Please help

Thanks
Himanshu
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 03 Apr 2013, 08:48
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imhimanshu wrote:
Hi Experts,

Request you to please post your reasoning on the below doubt-

I understand that "That" can work in the following ways -

Object of Verb -

example
He suggested that the world is flat.

Object of Clause
This is the bread that he loves

Doubt 1 -Now, here, as per my understanding we can remove "THAT". Can We ??
Doubt 2 - Is that working as Relative Pronoun over here?

Subject of Clause

This is the bread that is made of whole grain.
Doubt 3- Here, that is referring to bread. -> Is that working as Relative Pronoun?

I know these are silly doubts, but I believe that will help me in solving many of the SC's that I found confusing.

Once cleared, I will post SC where we can apply this concept in cracking that.

Thanks
H



Hi Himanshu,

Responding to the PM, happy to answer your doubts. Here are my two cents.

Definition - A relative pronoun is a pronoun that introduces a relative clause. It is called a "relative" pronoun because it "relates" to the word that it modifies.

This is the bread that he loves

Doubt 1 - you can drop "that" in the sentence.

e.g.


Among all the countries that I know, Japan has the best restaurants. --> correct

Among all the countries I know, Japan has the best restaurants. --> correct

This is the bread that he loves

Doubt 2 - Yes "that" is a relative pronoun here and the clause "that he loves" is a relative clause.

This is the bread that is made of whole grain.

Doubt 3 - Yes, "that" is a relative pronoun here and the clause starting with "that" - "that is made of whole grain" is the relative clause.


What's the official question that has thrown you off.. Anyways OG is the boss, if OG says something is correct/ incorrect then it is...

Moreover, check out this article on relative pronouns - http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/pron ... lative.htm

Hope this helps,

Vercules
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 03 Apr 2013, 10:09
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imhimanshu wrote:
Hi Payal,
The Summary posted above is the result of your article only, and subsequently the doubt as well. :-D

If there is something in the article that confused you, then I would like to know more about it so that I can see if we want to clarify that better. So please tell me which summary point confused you :)
Quote:
The only thing that I wanted to clarify is whether "That" can act as Realtive Pronoun when acting as both Object of thle clause as well as in Subject of the Clause.

Yes, that can act as relative pronoun when acting as both object and the subject. For example:
This is the book that I read when I was on vacation. - Here "that" acts as a relative pronoun and is not the subject of the clause that it introduces.
This is the book that is written by a novice author. - Here "that" acts as a relative pronoun and is the subject of the clause that it introduces.

And as Vercules pointed out, you can omit "that" in the sentence in which that is not acting as a subject (but acting as a relative pronoun). But you cannot omit "that" in the second sentence.

This is the book thatI read when I was on vacation. - Correct sentence
This is the book thatis written by a novice author. - Incorrect sentence

Quote:
I thought that I am good with "That" concept, but something in OG just threw me off.

Yes, definitely post the OG question that threw you off. We would be happy to look at it.

Regards,
Payal
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 03 Apr 2013, 10:54
egmat wrote:
If there is something in the article that confused you, then I would like to know more about it so that I can see if we want to clarify that better. So please tell me which summary point confused you :)


Thanks Payal and Vercules for the prompt and detailed reply.

@ Payal -

Article is appropriately written as always(but one point confused me, written at the bottom), however I wanted to learn when can I remove "That" safely. This is something that always confuses me and the confusion arose from the question OG 13- Choice B.

a phenomenon most scientists agree that is caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings

Here, can we say that "THAT" is removed??

a phenomenon {THAT} most scientists agree that is caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings

Because it can be implied that it is following the sentence structure -
Clause 1: A phenomenon.. is caused
Clause 2: scientists agree...

So, "that" can act as Object of clause, hence may be removed.

Of course, the choice B is wrong for other obvious reasons, but I believe that finding a mechanical defect under time pressure is way easier that finding something that requires logic and luck.

Quote:

Yes, that can act as relative pronoun when acting as both object and the subject. For example:
This is the book that I read when I was on vacation. - Here "that" acts as a relative pronoun and is not the subject of the clause that it introduces.
This is the book that is written by a novice author. - Here "that" acts as a relative pronoun and is the subject of the clause that it introduces.

And as Vercules pointed out, you can omit "that" in the sentence in which that is not acting as a subject (but acting as a relative pronoun). But you cannot omit "that" in the second sentence.

This is the book thatI read when I was on vacation. - Correct sentence
This is the book thatis written by a novice author. - Incorrect sentence


Doubt 1: - Does "THAT" always act as Relative Pronoun when act as either subject or object of the clause. Or are there any exceptions?

Doubt 2:-
Below sentence is from e-gmat article, though taken half of it to put point across.
The analysts strongly believe that the manufacturing sector will continue to act as a drag on gross domestic product in the third quarter.

Can we remove "That" from the above sentence? If not,.. is the sentence incorrect for violating the rule Subject Verb must make sense?

Quote:
Yes, definitely post the OG question that threw you off. We would be happy to look at it.


Verbal Review q-84
The computer company’s present troubles are a result of technological
stagnation, marketing missteps, and managerial blunders
so that several attempts to revise corporate strategies have failed
to correct it.


D. that several attempts to revise corporate strategies have
failed to correct

I believe, this is a real monster. I was able to crack this, but have done it from Idiom Perspective. But, while reviewing, I came across a few doubts.

Doubt 3-
I was under the impression that when THAT works as object of clause then two clauses can work as stand alone sentence and it only works as a connector, as described by article.This was my take away from the article : Clause 1+ that + Clause 2, and Clause 2 has no bearing on Clause 1. But, when I saw the explanation that says "Relative pronoun that is referring to causes correctly" . This point brings ambiguity, so I have to revisit the complete concept again.

Doubt 4 - "Why don't we require "them" as the object here". To me, sentence seems incomplete, and under time pressure, I may overlook this choice.

Apologies for troubling you.

Thanks
H
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 03 Apr 2013, 19:15
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@himanshu wrote :Doubt 4 - "Why don't we require "them" as the object here". To me, sentence seems incomplete, and under time pressure, I may overlook this choice.


ask ur self : will u ever say : i am waiting for a train that i love it !! . the answer is no .the logic is simple once u have already modified "train" with "that" then why do u need to refer back again with a pronoun "it" . doing so will make the sentence wrong !!

the correct sentence wud be : i am waiting for a train that i love (its just a hypothetical sentence .plz dont go into the detail as how can i love a train? !!! )

similarly the question that u have picked does not need "them" at the end of the sentence
make sense?
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 06:30
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@himanshu ( in reply to your pm)

‘That’ has several uses such as relative pronoun, conjunction, adjective and adverb and so on, meaning that the context is essential to judge in correct usage. When it is used as a relative pronoun, it should refer to a noun, either a subject or object. Dropping the ‘that’ is optional and is done mostly in short versions, informal writings, dialogues and conversations. In formal settings, however. whether they are correct is highly debatable Take for example this sentence;
This is the bread that he loves---
Many have felt that it is ok to pass this sentence without ‘that’ but will it be grammatically correct? When re-phrased without ‘that, the sentence reads “this is the bread he loves: There are two ICs here and there is not even punctuation in between. So it is safer to add the ‘that’ in longer statements, unless you don’t mind confusion
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 06:54
Quote:
daagh wrote :“this is the bread he loves: There are two ICs here and there is not even punctuation in between. So it is safer to add the ‘that’ in longer statements, unless you don’t mind confusion


this interpretation is not correct :

first of all "he loves" is not an independent clause . independent clause need to stand alone meaning wise .
ask ur self : do u get complete meaning with sentence "he loves" .the answer is no !! the question is "he loves what ?
secondly redundancy is one big sin in gmat . so once u have already referred "that bread" with "this bread" ,u dont need to put "that " again
thirdly "he loves" is used as modifier here so that punctuation thing that u talking is not needed !!
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 09:19
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Mr. Adithya 8062

If you think he loves is not an IC, then you better learn your basics. He lives is a perfect IC and please rest assured that the object is not necessary to complete the meaning in every sentence. For ex: see the following

I sleep
He smiles
He plays
You write

Take the last sentence. To explain it, let me say: the meaning can be completed by simply saying you write. Here it does not require an object whether you write sense or non-sense. Do did you get it?

Secondly your perception that no punctuation is required when a modifier is used defies convention and custom. Do you mean adverbial modifiers do not need comma?

P.S. As a global moderator, I may have to peruse your postings to see whether the are in good taste for a public forum such as this. Let me leave it at this at the moment.
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 09:32
Quote:
Secondly your perception that no punctuation is required when a modifier is used defies convention and custom. Do you mean adverbial modifiers do not need comma?


first of all i never claimed that in the sentence :"this is the bread he loves" "he loves " is an adverbial modifier !! it is not
ask ur self : what is it modifying ? it is modifying "bread" so it is a noun modifier and not adverbial modifier as propounded by u
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 09:40
Quote:
P.S. As a global moderator, I may have to peruse your postings to see whether the are in good taste for a public forum such as this. Let me leave it at this at the moment.


i am not sure what exactly u mean here . is it that ur hurt by my explanation? .i just corrected u where i felt ur wrong .this is an open democratic forum and trust me real and honest ideas flow when knowledge is made to flow unrestricted .i dont even know u personally so why u accusing me of something that i have not even done .my only intention was to correct ur ideas unless u felt that bad !!
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 10:07
Quote:
DAAgh wrote : Do you mean adverbial modifiers do not need comma?


well.. if u genuinely asking me then yes we can have a legitimate sentence
case in point : i walk to the store on Mondays ----> "on mondays" is an adverbial modifier without a comma !!
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 10:49
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Folks,

I am not accusing anyone, but please stay on the topic. Otherwise I would have to lock the topic and delete redundant responses.

Everyone can express his/ her opinions and anyone can be incorrect in his/ her interpretation; however we need to be polite and respectful in our responses.

Thanks,
Vercules
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 10:52
aditya8062 wrote:
Quote:
DAAgh wrote : Do you mean adverbial modifiers do not need comma?


well.. if u genuinely asking me then yes we can have a legitimate sentence
case in point : i walk to the store on Mondays ----> "on mondays" is an adverbial modifier without a comma !!


It is one of the case, not always.
example: On Mondays, I walk to the store.
Here, you require Comma.
Moreover, Why are you getting into Punctuation stuff, when GMAT doesn't test it at all. The only rule that you keep in check is that Adverbial Modifier answers Why, how, what etc of a verb. Period.
I believe, it is going off the track. The thread discusses usage of "THAT", and lets keep our energies and eyes focused on that only. Its a very important concept.
Thanks

P.S. Thanks Vercules for pitching in, but a small request, pls don't lock it.. I need to get this concept clarified. Its too confusing for me.
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 11:02
Quote:
himanshu wrote :It is one of the case, not always.
example: On Mondays, I walk to the store.
Here, you require Comma.


thats right my only contention was to point out that not in all cases adverbial modifiers require comma .thats the reason i wrote that example

Last edited by aditya8062 on 04 Apr 2013, 11:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 11:03
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I fully agree with imhimanshu and it is an important concept.
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 15:42
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imhimanshu wrote:
@ Payal -

Article is appropriately written as always(but one point confused me, written at the bottom), however I wanted to learn when can I remove "That" safely. This is something that always confuses me and the confusion arose from the question OG 13- Choice B.

a phenomenon most scientists agree that is caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings

Here, can we say that "THAT" is removed??

a phenomenon {THAT} most scientists agree that is caused by fossil fuels burned by human beings

Because it can be implied that it is following the sentence structure -
Clause 1: A phenomenon.. is caused
Clause 2: scientists agree...

So, "that" can act as Object of clause, hence may be removed.


Yes "that" can be removed from this sentence. I believe including or not including "that" in such role has become a matter of preference. I personally include "that" so that my sentence is absolutely clear. But I see a number of occasions in which "that" when used in such role has been omitted. Here are two such instances from nytimes.

Yet some intelligence officials and outside analysts believethere is another possible explanation for Iran’s enrichment activity, besides a headlong race to build a bomb as quickly as possible.

The economy grew at a rate of only 0.1 percent in the fourth quarter, but many analysts believethe American economy will grow a modest 2 percent this year.

Notice that the highlighted portion should have had "that" but the author decided to omit it. :)
Quote:
Of course, the choice B is wrong for other obvious reasons, but I believe that finding a mechanical defect under time pressure is way easier that finding something that requires logic and luck.

Himanshu, please do not get in the habit of finding such mechanical defects. Believe me if you are preparing the right way, you should not have to think about mechanical defects over logic. This is THE ONE thing that I warn the students about. You are all logical analytical minded people. So why do you shy away from using logic. Why do you feel that rote learning of rules and exceptions is better. Why did you have to find a mechanical defect in choice B when it is blatantly wrong on the other more obvious fronts. And if those fronts are not obvious to you, then instead of finding alternate ways, work on making sure that the fronts that matter become more obvious to you...
Excuse me if I went beyond the scope of the question asked, but I feel you are getting to the stage of "analysis paralysis".
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2013, 17:32
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imhimanshu wrote:
[
Doubt 1: - Does "THAT" always act as Relative Pronoun when act as either subject or object of the clause. Or are there any exceptions?


You need to answer this question yourself. And I will guide you through the process:
When "that" acts as a subject or object, it is part of the clause right? Now does the word "that" by itself mean anything or does it get its meaning when it refers to something in the sentence. Now when "that" refers to something, then by definition is it not a pronoun (or relative pronoun in this case to be more specific).

Does this thought process help you?

Regards,

Payal
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt [#permalink] New post 05 Apr 2013, 20:58
egmat wrote:
imhimanshu wrote:
[
Doubt 1: - Does "THAT" always act as Relative Pronoun when act as either subject or object of the clause. Or are there any exceptions?


You need to answer this question yourself. And I will guide you through the process:
When "that" acts as a subject or object, it is part of the clause right? Now does the word "that" by itself mean anything or does it get its meaning when it refers to something in the sentence. Now when "that" refers to something, then by definition is it not a pronoun (or relative pronoun in this case to be more specific).

Does this thought process help you?

Regards,

Payal

Thanks Payal, It made the things crystal clear.On the other day, I did some study on clearing the concept and I found that the answer was too obvious. And a confirmation from you is icing on the cake.

Thanks again. +1
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Re: Usage of That - Doubt   [#permalink] 05 Apr 2013, 20:58
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