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Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy

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Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 17:46
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Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline.

(A) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang
(B) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs were hanging
(C) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
(D) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
(E) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs have hung

I have two doubts in this question:
1) According to the OE, "whose" modifies "branches". However, in other official questions I have seen that sometimes the clause modifier doesn't modify the closest noun. Actually, it can modify the main noun in a noun phrase as long as it makes sense and it is not ambiguous.
In this case, we have "monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose..."; "monkeys" is the main noun of that noun phrase and makes sense with "arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline".
So, my question is: Is the split "whose....", a good reason to eliminate some choices?

2) What are the rules related to a prepositional phrase after a comma? In this question: "..., with arms and legs hanging". How could we know that the prepositional phrase refers to the monkeys and not the visitors. Because these modifiers modify the entire clause, usually modifies the subject (visitors).

Thanks!
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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy can [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 21:03
danzig wrote:
Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline.

(A) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang
(B) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs were hanging
(C) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
(D) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
(E) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs have hung

I have two doubts in this question:
1) According to the OE, "whose" modifies "branches". However, in other official questions I have seen that sometimes the clause modifier doesn't modify the closest noun. Actually, it can modify the main noun in a noun phrase as long as it makes sense and it is not ambiguous.
In this case, we have "monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose..."; "monkeys" is the main noun of that noun phrase and makes sense with "arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline".
So, my question is: Is the split "whose....", a good reason to eliminate some choices?

2) What are the rules related to a prepositional phrase after a comma? In this question: "..., with arms and legs hanging". How could we know that the prepositional phrase refers to the monkeys and not the visitors. Because these modifiers modify the entire clause, usually modifies the subject (visitors).

Thanks!


On the GMAT I think whose can only refer to people, and not animals. Saw can be eliminated because it causes a conflict in tense. Basically if the visitors saw a monkey the next set of customers may not see the same monkeys hanging on trees. And the action is ongoing because the continually have people coming and noticing the same as the last group.

So A, B, and E can be eliminated because whose is not referring to a person. A, B and C can be eliminated because it
changes the meaning of the sentence in terms of tenses.

D is only one left
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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy can [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 22:31
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Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline.

(A) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang
Whose cannot modify animals
(B) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs were hanging
Whose cannot modify animals
(C) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
saw is not the right tense used because the tense should be parallel to have often looked up
(D) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
Correct
(E) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs have hung
Whose cannot modify animals

Now regarding your doubts:

1) According to the OE, "whose" modifies "branches". However, in other official questions I have seen that sometimes the clause modifier doesn't modify the closest noun. Actually, it can modify the main noun in a noun phrase as long as it makes sense and it is not ambiguous.
In this case, we have "monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose..."; "monkeys" is the main noun of that noun phrase and makes sense with "arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline".
So, my question is: Is the split "whose....", a good reason to eliminate some choices?
The answer choice containing whose can simply be eliminated, because on the GMAT, whose can only modify people and here it seems to modify monkeys.

2) What are the rules related to a prepositional phrase after a comma? In this question: "..., with arms and legs hanging". How could we know that the prepositional phrase refers to the monkeys and not the visitors. Because these modifiers modify the entire clause, usually modifies the subject (visitors).
normally a prepositional phrase can be placed anywhere, but generally it is placed closest to the noun being modified, in this case the monkeys.
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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy can [#permalink] New post 09 May 2013, 08:05
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My first point is that we should not confuse the use of ‘who’ with ‘whose’. ‘Who’ can be only used for humans, while 'whose' can be used universally for humans, non-humans, and even inanimate things.

Ex: Tom is the student who is the topper in GMAT - right , because student is a human
Tom is the student, which is the topper in GMAT - wrong because,’ which’ cannot denote humans
Tom grows a couple of cows, who yield two litres of milk – wrong because who cannot denote cows.
Tom grows a couple of cows, which yield two litres of milk – correct
Tom is the student, whose marks are the highest in the GMAT – right
Tom has half dozen pens, whose total is price is $5 – right again, though pen is a not a man.
Tom grows a couple of cows, whose total yield per day is two liters of milk. – Perfectly correct, even though cows are not humans.

All of the uses of 'whose' are correct because there is no other word to denote the possessive form of these pronouns. Actually the possessive pronoun of ‘who’, and ‘which’ is only ‘whose’.

Second, in this case, we have to ignore - saw monkeys -; because of //ism A, B and C are out in the dump.
Read with have, the past participle ‘seen’, is quite //. Now comes the play of logic in this modification by the prepositional phrase. Mechanically we cannot conclude that all the eligible nouns are vying to be modified equally; For example, a visitor is a visitor who has come to enjoy some place. He has not come to sleep on the branches. Nor do branches have arms and legs hanging like socks. So it can be only monkeys. This logical perception is vital for solving the contemporary pattern of question in the GMAT.
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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy can [#permalink] New post 09 May 2013, 08:47
danzig wrote:
1) According to the OE, "whose" modifies "branches". However, in other official questions I have seen that sometimes the clause modifier doesn't modify the closest noun. Actually, it can modify the main noun in a noun phrase as long as it makes sense and it is not ambiguous.


Can you cite any official example where a relative pronoun (such as "whose" in this case) used as a non-essential modifier (basically delimited by commas) modifies anything other than the nearest eligible noun.

Would be interesting to see such example.
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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy [#permalink] New post 12 May 2014, 05:20
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Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy [#permalink] New post 03 Apr 2015, 13:28
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Hi Mike, I have a doubt in this question:

Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline.

(A) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang
(B) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs were hanging
(C) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
(D) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
(E) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs have hung

this is the link: visitors-to-the-park-have-often-looked-up-into-the-leafy-152495.html?fl=similar

Now my question is first with the use of the preposition “WITH,” according from my notes i have written that “WITH” + NOUN + -ING is never correct on teh GMAT is this right because in the question above the official answer is D, and my answer is B becasue “with” is out and is used “whose” which refers to monkeys. I know afer reading the forum B fails in the verb tense, but still I’m not convunced that D is correct since to much action is squeezed under the prepositional phrase. What is your oppinion on this issue.

Thanks a lot,
Kiril

Kiril,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

Here's the thing. That rule of yours needs a little more nuance. It's not true that "with" + [noun] + [participle] is always wrong, 100% of the time. What''s true is that this structure is incorrect when it contains a full action, a full action that would be more appropriately conveyed by a full clause. For example,
With the Army of the James approaching from the west, Lee had no viable escape at the Battle of Appomattox.
The words following "with" describe a vivid action, somebody actually doing something. For that, we need a full clause.
Because the Army of the James was approaching from the west, Lee had no viable escape at the Battle of Appomattox.
By contrast, the structure can be purely descriptive, lacking any connotation of some "doer" doing something.
With an overcoat hanging over one shoulder, he saunter into the room.
That's perfectly correct. There's not an active "doer" doing something. The entire "with" construction is purely descriptive, not conveying a separate action. That's why the structure is 100% correct in that case. Much in the same way, version (D) of the question is perfectly correct:
Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging like socks on a clothesline.
Think about this. This is not an "action." This is not a "doer" doing something. This is purely descriptive. The "with" clause is simply painting a picture of the scene, not describing a separate action different from the action of the main clause. In this case, the "with" structure is 100% correct.

What matters with this structure is meaning. Meaning is always the most important thing on the GMAT SC.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy [#permalink] New post 04 Apr 2015, 06:21
mikemcgarry wrote:
Quote:
Hi Mike, I have a doubt in this question:

Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang like socks on a clothesline.

(A) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs hang
(B) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs were hanging
(C) saw monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
(D) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging
(E) seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, whose arms and legs have hung

this is the link: visitors-to-the-park-have-often-looked-up-into-the-leafy-152495.html?fl=similar

Now my question is first with the use of the preposition “WITH,” according from my notes i have written that “WITH” + NOUN + -ING is never correct on teh GMAT is this right because in the question above the official answer is D, and my answer is B becasue “with” is out and is used “whose” which refers to monkeys. I know afer reading the forum B fails in the verb tense, but still I’m not convunced that D is correct since to much action is squeezed under the prepositional phrase. What is your oppinion on this issue.

Thanks a lot,
Kiril

Kiril,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

Here's the thing. That rule of yours needs a little more nuance. It's not true that "with" + [noun] + [participle] is always wrong, 100% of the time. What''s true is that this structure is incorrect when it contains a full action, a full action that would be more appropriately conveyed by a full clause. For example,
With the Army of the James approaching from the west, Lee had no viable escape at the Battle of Appomattox.
The words following "with" describe a vivid action, somebody actually doing something. For that, we need a full clause.
Because the Army of the James was approaching from the west, Lee had no viable escape at the Battle of Appomattox.
By contrast, the structure can be purely descriptive, lacking any connotation of some "doer" doing something.
With an overcoat hanging over one shoulder, he saunter into the room.
That's perfectly correct. There's not an active "doer" doing something. The entire "with" construction is purely descriptive, not conveying a separate action. That's why the structure is 100% correct in that case. Much in the same way, version (D) of the question is perfectly correct:
Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging like socks on a clothesline.
Think about this. This is not an "action." This is not a "doer" doing something. This is purely descriptive. The "with" clause is simply painting a picture of the scene, not describing a separate action different from the action of the main clause. In this case, the "with" structure is 100% correct.

What matters with this structure is meaning. Meaning is always the most important thing on the GMAT SC.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)

Hi Mike!
What about the usage of relative pronoun? Should they be placed close to the noun and also, should they be used only for people and not animal? Would you agree with daagh's list?
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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy [#permalink] New post 06 Apr 2015, 10:02
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b2bt wrote:
Hi Mike!
What about the usage of relative pronoun? Should they be placed close to the noun and also, should they be used only for people and not animal? Would you agree with daagh's list?

Dear b2bt.
I'm happy to respond. :-) Relative pronouns begin a noun-modifying clause, an adjectival clause. As a general rule, all noun-modifiers should touch the noun they modify, but there are regular exceptions to the Modifier Touch Rule. See:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/modifiers- ... orrection/

I agree with what daagh had to say above. I will simply clarify:
The relative pronouns "who" and "whom" are always used with people, never with animals or objects.
The relative pronouns "which" and "that" are used with animals or object, never with people.
The relative pronoun "whose" is used in all cases, people or animals or objects.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy [#permalink] New post 06 Apr 2015, 20:42
mikemcgarry wrote:
b2bt wrote:
Hi Mike!
What about the usage of relative pronoun? Should they be placed close to the noun and also, should they be used only for people and not animal? Would you agree with daagh's list?

Dear b2bt.
I'm happy to respond. :-) Relative pronouns begin a noun-modifying clause, an adjectival clause. As a general rule, all noun-modifiers should touch the noun they modify, but there are regular exceptions to the Modifier Touch Rule. See:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/modifiers- ... orrection/

I agree with what daagh had to say above. I will simply clarify:
The relative pronouns "who" and "whom" are always used with people, never with animals or objects.
The relative pronouns "which" and "that" are used with animals or object, never with people.
The relative pronoun "whose" is used in all cases, people or animals or objects.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)

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Re: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy   [#permalink] 06 Apr 2015, 20:42
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