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What do you want to do? [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 05:38
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I found this post on BW forums really interesting especially after the discussion that followed from rhyme's thread earlier in the week.

http://forums.businessweek.com/n/pfx/fo ... &tid=69539

This guy is a career changer, presumably like many of us here and has had a lot of trouble securing the "right" job while at b-school and even after graduating. I think, in many cases like this, little can be attributed to the school, its careers services or to the person's grades (stellar in this particular case). However, it comes down to not knowing exactly what you want to do.

As was evident in the posts earlier this week, many of us know what we don't want to do. Knowing precisely what we want to do, however, is proving to be a little more tricky. Some want to get into IB, some into PE, others MC, others not-for-profit, etc. But we all know that all these areas are very broad and the various jobs in each vary greatly.

As many of us are still waiting for decisions, and others are counting the days to leave their jobs and move onto b-school, this may be a good time to do as much research as possible on this topic. Speak to people in the fields that interest you, read the guides, discuss the details on forums, you know the drill... You never know, you can learn about something that you never knew existed and it could be your dream job.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 06:21
Thats a very informative thread. Also, Alex, one of the other posters on that thread is one of the most insightful posters on that board. I have a friend at HBS who is still frantically looking for work. If you don't want to get into Finance and Consulting, you'll really have to do alot of your own leg work, regardless of what school you go to. Since I want to go into consulting I may be in a better position, but I've heard and read enough about to process to know not to take anything for granted and to be sure to play the schmoozing game (something that doesn't come naturally to me).
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 06:46
hasam, thanks for this post.

Nsentra, I think this is the post you were telling me about last night.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 07:42
i stickied. wow. im speechless. time to really figure this out
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 08:34
rhyme wrote:
i stickied. wow. im speechless. time to really figure this out


Right, this topic could be name "Top 10% at Top 10 School = Jobless and unhappy?"

My reflection from his post is the interviewers just 'didnt like him.' Once you get into the interview, they already know based on the resume if you are smart or not, then its just 'do I want to spend 80h/wk with him.'

Unfortunately, he is an honest person and straightforward person and that is not the rewarded behavior in S & T.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 10:43
That's a very interesting post, and there's definitely something to be learned from it. I don't, however, find that it is all that surprising. With the caveat that I have not attended business school yet, I have the following reactions.

First, Stern is not a top 10 school. We have discussed this topic on prior occasions but attending an ultra-elite is pretty much a no-brainer. Attending an elite can be almost as good, but many of the elites do have limitations with regards to location or profession. This is something that we should be particularly mindful of if the economy heads south. Brand name matters more when competition for jobs is higher. A Harvard degree may guarantee you your dream job, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that a Stern degree does not.

My next observation is that this person made a big mistake by continuing to pursue a banking job as a second year. As I understand it, banks to almost all of their hiring through their summer programs. Most banks have rotational programs during their summer, and it's obviously really important to make a good impression while working there. The fact that he didn't get an offer after his first summer (I think 80%+ do at most banks) probably meant that he wasn't great at the work. Since most banks do all of their hiring through their summer program, the fact that he had 14 1st round interviews the next year probably means nothing. It's not surprising that he experienced a "don't call us" attitude when the recruiters he was meeting with were likely not interested in 2nd years. He really needed to consider other options at the start of his 2nd year, not the end. Also, a 2nd year without a job should be spending breaks contacting employers and establishing connections rather than going on vacation as he did.

I'm not sure if I got this right, but he says he took a job, and left it 6 weeks later because the travel was too tough? Did he forget how tough his job search process was? That's crazy. No matter how tough a job is, you probably need to stick with it for at least a year, so future employers don't think you are a job hopper. He then landed another job, and is ready to leave it as well because of the travel (though it is less than the first position); and now he hopes a west coast employer will be interested in him? Again, is he crazy? Who's going to touch someone like that?

I do believe there was some valuable advice though. First, I have heard from other sources as well that it is much more important to focus on the job search than on grades. You've got to hit the ground running the very first weeks you are on campus and begin your job search. He said that his fellow students had many more interviews than the 4 that he had - I think this is the root of his problems. It certainly makes sense to be ready to begin the job search in the fall - which probably means spending the summer researching jobs and industries.

He said that for him, coming from a technical background, networking was a new experience for him. It's clear that interviewing and networking is really important, especially in the financial services fields he was looking at. That's an observation that everyone should consider while examining themselves. I think it's a kill that people should self-assess, and then practice as necessary - probably before getting to campus in the fall. I know that most people around here look down on fraternity experience, but the countless hours spent glad-handing, meeting new people and pitching your views are invaluable in information session or cocktail type networking events. If you don't have a lot of experience in these settings, just remember that a lot of the people you are competing with probably do.

His advice on headhunters was also interesting. I had never though of that, but that seems like a really good idea. I'm not sure how perspective employers will view it, but if you don't get something through on-campus recruiting, a headhunter is probably a valuable tool.

So, my conclusion is that this person was not well-enough prepared for the job search. The fact that he calls it "job-whoring" reveals an underlying attitude that probably didn't come across as very positive to recruiters. He then shot himself in the foot repeatedly by ignoring reality at the beginning of his 2nd year, not presenting himself aggressively during the rest of the 2nd year, and then job hopping after graduation. I think the members of this club are better informed, regarding school strengths and so forth, than most perspective MBA students. The best advice here is to probably start honing the skills that you will need in the fall, and to start doing so as soon as possible.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 12:09
Agree 100% with Pelihu - this guy may be an anomaly.

Furthermore - maybe he has an abrasive/tough to deal with personality?

Just as you have to execute on a million different things to get into b-school, it seems to me that you have to execute at the same (or perhaps higher) level when trying to get a job.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 12:15
Yea, I found the whole comment about quitting after six weeks ridiculous. I had a job I couldnt tolerate like that - with its 18 hour days - but I stuck it out eight months before throwing in the towel - and I probably should have stuck it out longer, but I needed to get my GMAT underway.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 13:12
I agree with pelihu for the most part. I disagree with the following statement:
"First, Stern is not a top 10 school. We have discussed this topic on prior occasions but attending an ultra-elite is pretty much a no-brainer. Attending an elite can be almost as good, but many of the elites do have limitations with regards to location or profession."

Overall rankings may carry some waight but not as much as school's regional reputation and ranking by specialty when one looks for a job in a particular area and a particular industry. This guy wanted to do finance in NY and though I tried, I could not come up with a list of 10 schools that would be better for it than NYU.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 14:20
Very interesting post by the guy and by fellow G'clubbers.

My analysis on this guy's case

1) As said before, quitting a job after 6 weeks because you are doing SOX work instead of financial whatever and you travel a lot does not sound like a mature decision. His employer was probably significantly understaffed in all SOX matters (as probably every other consultancy was at the time) and they required he chimed in. He instead chose to run away, just after orientation. His attitude sounds like a bad case of MBA-arrogance (he should star the Fedex MBA add). Additionally, how do you think the person who recommended him looked like? Thanks to this guy, this other person will not be able to recommend effectively another person for some time.

2) I am a firm believer that the GPA at the MBA is meaningless, GND or not. Unless you are bottom 5 or 10% (in which case you'll need to explain), you'll know what needs to be known from the courses. Or you'll be wise enough to learn fast. Unluckily for this guy, however, GPA does not measure other characteristics like: leadership, people skills, networking skills, etc. If you are going into research (Physics Major, etc.) or maybe Law, then GPAs will definitely matter. MBA? Not so much. Maybe only at a few subjects you did not tackle before in your professional life, such as finance for an Electrical Engineering major, but that's about it.

3) A lot has been written about the "rituals" in the financial sector. I've read of hand-written thank you notes in fancy stationary, golf playing, cigar and wines discussions and so on and so forth. This guy disliked all this stuff, so it's no wonder he did not make progress in this industry. He failed to understand the unwritten rules of the job search. How would potential employers expect him to understand the probably much more complex rules later on?

4) I think not only him, but all of us, should be realistic in our career change expectations. I read somewhere, that you can change only 2 of 3 parameters. Eg: you are in IT, in Latin America, experienced as a project manager. You can expect to transition to Finance, Latin America, [fancy position]. Or you could expect to transition to Manufacturing, US, Project Management. But you'll struggle to change all 3 criteria simultaneously. You could try, but you should not assume it's your MBA-given right. It will require a lot of effort.

5) Why is it that us Engineers think we are better than anyone else? Why would he say that his Berkeley Engineering was better than a Princeton history major? I could argue it's the other way round. Anyone can learn the quantitative models quite fast (if they made it to B-school). But learning how to communicate compellingly takes much longer. And having a Princeton network? That's probably very valuable. And I could expect communication skills to be important at such a job.

6) As Pelihu wrote, he messed up his whole 2nd year strategy.


A few comments on the implications of this post for us

1) It's good to be reminded that post MBA job hunt will be as tough or even tougher than applying (which in turn was tougher than GMAT, which was tougher than post undergrad job search, which was tougher than high school, etc.).

2) I think it would be a wise move if we take some time to analyze our backup plan, for eg., if all else fails and we are confronted with a stagnant economy, what will we do? For some, the backup plan could be: "I'm gonna master the whole recruiting process so much that I'm gonna land a job even if I have to compete with every student in my school". For others, it could mean leaving doors open at our current employer.

3) The guy in the example is most likely a US citizen or a US resident. I think this post is much more relevant to internationals. I usually stress to internationals the importance of MBA prestige. I can argue that if you are an international any program below the Elite (maybe Trans Elite) cluster will have a non negligible risk attached to it. You would not want to be left with some debt you can only service by working away from your home country and struggling to land a job. I refer you to a related post from the Ask Hjort forum.

http://www.gmatclub.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=19845

Don't get me wrong, I sincerely think that there are several lower clustered program which will be very valuable to several people. What I'm saying is that these programs will probably make much more sense to:
- US citizens or residents.
- sponsored or "scholarshipped" internationals.
- Internationals who need the education for entrepreneuring or some other project but not for landing a job.

I'm pretty confident I can recover the investment both back home or elsewhere, but this may not be the case for everyone.

4) This shows why adcoms want us to have a realistic post - MBA plan in our apps. They know most MBA grads will be career changers. And they know that most people end up doing something else than what they wrote in their applications. But they need to know that if all else fails, you still have a reasonable back up plan. Or most importantly, they need to be assured that you know what a reasonable plan is!

5) FIT with an industry or position. I think we will have to take some serious introspection time before deciding on job searches. I agree that FIT with a particular MBA program is probably overrated. FIT can help you choose among 2 similar clustered programs. But who would choose a Near Elite over an Ultra Elite due to fit concerns? I do, however, think that fit is more important for a job search. You do not like spending energy on the endless array of rituals that go with the financial industry? Guess what: you don't fit. You need your weekends? then there are several jobs that are not for you. You would not like to travel 3-5 days/week? then MC is not for you. I think the whole: IB/PE/MC or bust attitude is dangerous. Sure, we all like to look at the 300k + bonus salaries and imagine making our first post - MBA million within 3 years or graduation. But can we really put up with it for 3 years? Most importantly: do we have what it takes? There's a reason why salaries are so high in certain positions. Yeah, you're right, it's because only a few will be able to land and handle such a job.

6) I firmly believe that the MBA experience is much more than its ROI or its career changing power. I think that even when we land a non MBA position, the MBA will help us shine and be promoted. It will help us manage our lives more effectively (personal finances, time management, networking, leadership, cultural awareness, values, etc.). Where else can you not work for 2 years, have the time of your life and enhance your resume all a the same time? Where else can you brush up on several skills, learn new ones, forge friendships with people from around the world other than at an MBA? Where else can you get an enthusiasm shot that could last a lifetime?

IMHO, that's that.

Cheers. L.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 15:31
Quote:
Where else can you not work for 2 years, have the time of your life and enhance your resume all a the same time? Where else can you brush up on several skills, learn new ones, forge friendships with people from around the world other than at an MBA? Where else can you get an enthusiasm shot that could last a lifetime?


Dealing drugs.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 16:10
rhyme wrote:
Quote:
Where else can you not work for 2 years, have the time of your life and enhance your resume all a the same time? Where else can you brush up on several skills, learn new ones, forge friendships with people from around the world other than at an MBA? Where else can you get an enthusiasm shot that could last a lifetime?


Dealing drugs.


LOL.
Ok, ok, I should have added, "without breaking the law"...
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 16:43
That person was unrealistic. He (or she?) managed to secure a good job at a bulge bracket firm and screwed it all up. Did he not know what to expect? I have to believe that not receiving an offer from a summer internship is a black mark. I am a practicing lawyer and can tell you that at least in the field of law not receiving a job offer from a summer associate job is a black mark, and I assume it must also be in the Financial industry. That guy should have worked hard to get a full time offer and then worried about getting a different job. Jeez - what did he expect? His summer job was only for 3 months and he could not (or would not) tough it out enough to impress his superiors.

For him to quit his next job after only 6 weeks speaks volumes. This person clearly had unrealistic expectations prior to attending business school and it seems as though he likely has some major maturity/entitlement issues.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 17:18
I think most of you are being way too harsh on the poster. I gather that he was unable to secure the full time offer based on two things. One, he was unsure of what he wanted to do. Two, which he readily admits, he didn't drink the cool aid of job whoring. As for the job he quit, he took it because he didn't want the two years at Stern to amount to unemployment. The mistake wasn't quitting the job, it was taking it in the first place. Live and learn.

The moral of the story (which I've read at many bschool blogs) is that you should know what you want to do and hit the ground running with recruiting. Amidst all of the academia, let's not forget bschool is all about securing the job.

This is why I am so surprised that so many people here do not know what they want to do, or at least how bschool is going to help them.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 17:35
I agree with flapjack, not securing an offer from a summer internship at an IB is a negative mark. Bank's tend to do the bulk of their hiring through their summer programs, and many actually say that they bring in interns with the intention of making offers to everyone. In a good economy (last two years have been record breakers for banks), the only reason for not getting an offer is if you screwed up or can't hack it. Even if he had no intention of joining full-time, he still should have been able to earn an offer.

I think this is a good cautionary tale for everyone to keep in mind. Make job search a priority when you get to business school - possibly even ahead of grades. Also, to have realistic expectations and be ready to change your plans to fit the realities of the job market. IBs typically hire through their summer programs, so face reality and look elsewhere if you must during your 2nd year. For us, it could mean adjusting expectations and preparing for a down economy - who knows. The key is to be ready. I don't think this experience is typical, given the strong job market of the last 2 years, but it's a good story to keep in mind.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 18:01
kidderek wrote:
I think most of you are being way too harsh on the poster. I gather that he was unable to secure the full time offer based on two things. One, he was unsure of what he wanted to do. Two, which he readily admits, he didn't drink the cool aid of job whoring. As for the job he quit, he took it because he didn't want the two years at Stern to amount to unemployment. The mistake wasn't quitting the job, it was taking it in the first place. Live and learn.

The moral of the story (which I've read at many bschool blogs) is that you should know what you want to do and hit the ground running with recruiting. Amidst all of the academia, let's not forget bschool is all about securing the job.

This is why I am so surprised that so many people here do not know what they want to do, or at least how bschool is going to help them.


I agree with you to an extent - I think people are be too harsh but I disagree that quitting the job wasnt a bit unreasonable. Quitting a job after six weeks is ridiculous, and certainly raises questions about the guys maturity - moreover, you have to wonder why, by his own admission, he seemed to be the ugly duckling. I have a feeling it probably boils down to his inability to network, but I do think he's story is probably not as uncommon as we'd like to think it is. I also got the impression he didnt do a lot of research.

As for all the people who dont know what they want to do, I'd venture probably 75% of people who go to get their MBA change plans midstream. I think a lot of people - like myself - come in with broad strokes - "not IB, strategy oriented, ideally Chicago located, no travel, possibly with a small to medium sized firm or even a firm in angel funding." - broad strokes, but not much more than that.

A few I think come in with dreams of PE or buy side equity analyst focused IB xyz, but even those, I think adjust those visions upon arrival.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 18:27
rhyme wrote:
I agree with you to an extent - I think people are be too harsh but I disagree that quitting the job wasnt a bit unreasonable. Quitting a job after six weeks is ridiculous, and certainly raises questions about the guys maturity - moreover, you have to wonder why, by his own admission, he seemed to be the ugly duckling.


Poor execution on my part -- I agree his quitting was a very immature decision as well, but I tend to 'excuse' him more than others here b/c it seems to have been a result of his unemployment outlook at graduation and he made a rash decision.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 19:19
How do you accept a job and not have at least some idea what the work will be like? Was this guy really that shocked by the responsibilities of his job when he started work? Did he not research it properly, or ask enough questions before accepting the job?

I think this person sounds a little naive. There are some people who are intelligent in one sense of the word, but then completely clueless in other senses of the word. I've known some very intelligent people who seem completely delusional at times, they just don't have an awareness of the way things work. Maybe you could call it street-smarts or emotional intelligence or savvy. Maybe this person didn't have that savviness and that's why they bombed all those interviews.

As Pelihu pointed out, this poster seemed to make lots of poor decisions. The vacation was almost humorous.
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 [#permalink] New post 04 Mar 2007, 19:37
johnnyx9 wrote:
How do you accept a job and not have at least some idea what the work will be like? Was this guy really that shocked by the responsibilities of his job when he started work? Did he not research it properly, or ask enough questions before accepting the job?


Well, in his defense, sometimes what you buy isn't what you get.

I took a job in mid 2005 where I was supposed to be acting in a manager like role for a group that was basically called the initiative leadership group, a subset of an area of a company focused in financial and strategy consulting. It was an exciting role, one for a consulting firm that required no travel, maybe 10% offsite client work, and 90% leadership development. In essence, the job was to train and bring new and younger (eg fresh fish) analysts up to par to be client facing, manage our internal intellectual capital, and act as a hub for partners needing to staff more junior analysts quickly and effectively. It sounded like a pretty awesome opportunity - leadership oriented, strategic in nature, non client facing, minimal travel, consulting company pay but with likely more reasonable hours (since not client facing), exposure to a variety of senior partners quickly (rare at consulting firms), a chance to take on a "mentor" role which I love, etc etc etc.

The day before I joined I found out the initiative group wasn't were I'd end up - they changed their mind. I was being staffed to a client as a regular consultant. The reason for this? "Client demands combined with a shortage of resources." Basically, "we can make money off you, so we will".

It was a dramatic shift in job function, duties, and everything else - it meant far more hours, 100% travel, no leadership development role, no mentoring aspect and a completely different day to day job function. Bottom line: it wasn't the job I had accepted.

It's quite possible something similar happened to this fella, though he probably would have mentioned it if it did.
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 [#permalink] New post 05 Mar 2007, 12:25
This was an interesting piece. This guy struck me as a bit socially awkward and naive.

I am getting busy on my true post mba goals!
  [#permalink] 05 Mar 2007, 12:25
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