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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 18 Mar 2013, 20:15
TO EGMAT

A says:While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.


though i had eliminated A but i want to know if the initial comparison in A is faulty ?

if i say : nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants . i know that this comparison is oki even without the helping verb "do" because there is no ambiguity

so i get a feeling that in A this initial comparison :While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants seems to be right comparison wise .it might be wrong because of usage of "it" or because of some redundancy but comparison wise it seems oki .
any thought

Last edited by aditya8062 on 19 Mar 2013, 05:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 01:58
TO EGMAT
Quote:
EGMAT quote : (with correct connection)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that for other types of power plants.
So this is where the preposition "for" comes from.

plz tell me is it that the preposition "of" wud have been much better here
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 04:54
egmat wrote:

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Payal


Yes, it does.
Thanks for taking up my queries and responding in detail.

Thanks
H
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 05:05
Hi Aditya,

Let me take a stab on it.

While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants

Whenever, you encounter such questions, always make sure about the presence of Subject-Verb, Object and prepositional phrase.

If there is prepositional phrase, more often than not you have the ambiguity present. You will see that the sentence can be interpreted in two ways.

1) Repeat the MAIN VERB and see what does sentence mean now.
While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants (Costs)

Sentence says that cost of running nuclear plants is same as the cost of other power plants(it may cost of infrastructure, or machinery or something else). Now this is illogical, because for sentence to be logical, you must compare costs of running nuclear plants with cost of running other plants

2) Repeat the preposition before second entity
While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as {to run}other types of power plants
Now, here both the costs are same.

So, in nut shell, we have two different scenarios and hence, it is incorrect.

As far as your reasoning goes for negating choice A, I would refrain myself for using it until and unless I have other better choices.
For example,
it is absolutely correct to say that -

It is I who executes the automation scripts everyday.

Hope it is clear.

Thanks
H

aditya8062 wrote:
TO EGMAT

A says:While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.


though i had eliminated A but i want to know if the initial comparison in A is faulty ?

if i say : nuclear power plants cost twice as much as to run as other power plants . i know that this comparison is oki even without the helping verb "do" because there is no ambiguity

so i get a feeling that in A this initial comparison :While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants seems to be right comparison wise .it might be wrong because of usage of "it" or because of some redundancy but comparison wise it seems oki .
any thought

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 05:10
@himanshu if that is the case then why does this ambiguity does not arise in this comparison : nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants

Quote:
As far as your reasoning goes for negating choice A, I would refrain myself for using it until and unless I have other better choices.


my reasoning of eliminating A was not the initial "it" but the later "it" that comes in the sentence .: nuclear plants that makes it more expensive

Last edited by aditya8062 on 19 Mar 2013, 05:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 05:37
aditya8062 wrote:
@himanshu if that is the case then why does this ambiguity does not arise in this comparison : nuclear power plants cost twice as much as to run as other power plants


@ Aditya,

As far as my analysis goes, I think above sentence is equally ambivalent.

Original Sentence
nuclear power plants cost twice as much as to run as other power plants -> as should not be there.- Wrong Idiom. I guess its typo.

Now, going by my framework -
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants

Repeat Preposition phrase
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as {to run }other power plants
Here, cost of running nuclear plants is being compared and
Cost of running nuclear power plants =2* cost of running others

Repeat Main verb
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants do(cost)
This is illogical -
Cost of running nuclear power plants is being compared to cost of other power plants.

I went back to my notes to check if as much as only compares only subjects -This is what I get

1) Comparing Subjects
We have three times as many pears as you(have) - Here it is logical that number of pears =3* as you have. It is illogical to say that number of pears is 3 times as you.
2) Comparing Objects
His knowledge springs as much from experience as from schooling.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks
H
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 06:47
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants
well this sentence is oki comparison wise

Quote:
We have three times as many pears as you

Last edited by aditya8062 on 21 Mar 2013, 02:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 07:01
Quote:
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants

well this sentence is oki comparison wise

Pardon my knowledge. Request you to please show me your point of view, how the above sentence has a valid comparison. It could be structurally correct but as per me, its logically incorrect


Quote:
We have three times as many pears as you
the reason this sentence is ambiguous is coz "we" ,"pears" and "you" are parallel element and can make different meanings possible (which i guess u might be knowing )


This is perfectly correct sentence. Refer MGMAT, p 144.
I'm afraid if that is your reasoning of making the sentence ambiguous. For clarification, refer e-gmat article on ellipsis, example-

John cooks food better than his wife. - Its perfectly valid . However as per your explanation, its going to be ambiguous.

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 07:07
aditya8062 wrote:
@himanshu if that is the case then why does this ambiguity does not arise in this comparison : nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants

Quote:
As far as your reasoning goes for negating choice A, I would refrain myself for using it until and unless I have other better choices.


my reasoning of eliminating A was not the initial "it" but the later "it" that comes in the sentence .: nuclear plants that makes it more expensive


Can buy that reasoning. This is perfect.
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 07:08
We have three times as many pears as you
well i treated "you" as a group coz "we" can refer to a group .so fine "you" in this sentence is referring to just one person then "pears" cannot be parallel element to "you"

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 07:12
aditya8062 wrote:
all i am intending is that such an ambiguity is not there in my that sentence :nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants


Had that been the case, the following example would have been correct by your standards-

Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than permissive parents.

Again - apply framework
Meaning 1
Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than {to have}permissive parents.
Meaning -2
Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than permissive parents{are}

Either you or I going to have a concept clarified, with so much of discussion.
Waiting for experts.

Thanks
H
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 10:10
Expert's post
egmat wrote:
imhimanshu wrote:
I tried to understand this concept by taking clues from MGMAT, but failed to do so. I would appreciate if someone can help me out.

Here is an example from MGMAT-
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that among women.
Here, that is referring to incidence, per explanantion from MGMAT.

So, ellipsis should be -
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that(of the disease) among women.
Now, going by same concept -

The cost of running nuclear plants is same as that for electric plants.
In the below sentence, what THAT is referring to . Is it "the cost" or "the cost of running".

If it is later, then why do we require an extra preposition?

The cost of running nuclear plants is same as {the cost of running }for electric plants.

Appreciate your help
Thanks
H


Very interesting question Himanshu.
When you are dealing with ellipsis, it always helps to begin from the completely expanded version with all the words and then move your way to the abbreviated version by applying ellipsis along the way. I will do the same here:

Let's consider only the pertinent portion of the sentence.

1. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as the cost of running other types of power plants.
No issues here with the comparison. Both sides of the comparison are grammatically and logically parallel.

Now what if I replace "the cost of running" with "that". After it is obvious that we are comparing cost of running of the two categories of plants. But when I apply this ellipsis, I need something to connect "that" with "other types of power plants".

2. (Without connection with that)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that other types of power plants. WRONG

2. (with correct connection)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that for other types of power plants.
So this is where the preposition "for" comes from.

Now we continue with our ellipsis. We can indeed even omit "that" from here since this omission will not lead to any ambiguity.

3. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants.

So this is how I get to the correct sentence containing "for".

Now let's apply the same on the set of sentences:
1. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence of the disease among women.
1 to 2 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence of the disease among women.
2. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
2 to 3 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
3. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that among women.


Image

So the key thing here is that as you replace or omit words, think about what connections you may need to get the correct sentence. The nature of the two sentences is different. In the Official sentence, the main component - cost of running - took direct object without the need of any preposition. So when we replaced this with "that" we needed a connection - i.e. a preposition. However, in the other example, the main component - incidence of the disease - itself needed a preposition to connect to the object and hence when we replaced it with "that" we did not need to get another preposition.

Thus when you cross-check your work in ellipsis, start from the complete sentence and then work your way to simplified version with replacement words and omitted words.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Payal


So OA is B IMO..

@Payal-Can you please confirm...!
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 26 Mar 2013, 23:36
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aditya8062 wrote:
TO EGMAT

A says:While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.


though i had eliminated A but i want to know if the initial comparison in A is faulty ?

if i say : nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants . i know that this comparison is oki even without the helping verb "do" because there is no ambiguity

so i get a feeling that in A this initial comparison :While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants seems to be right comparison wise .it might be wrong because of usage of "it" or because of some redundancy but comparison wise it seems oki .
any thought



Sorry about the delay. I was been busy with some schedule driven activities :) I am pasting my response here: Hope this helps.
I took your sentence sets and applied my method of ellipsis to figure out if the ellipsis results in clear sentence or not.

Your Sentence Set 1
• Nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants cost.
o Nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants do.
o Nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants.

Your Sentence Set 2
• It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants
o It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as it does to run other types of power plants
o It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants.
 Here IMO the meaning is distorted a bit. One may construe this sentence to state the following non-sensical meaning - running “nuclear plants” in the role of “other types of power plants”.
 This is the reason why I believe the ellipsis cannot be applied in the manner we can in the previous set of sentence.

Notice another thing – in the first set of sentences we have “as much as” comparison marker. Whereas in the second set of sentences, we only have “as” marker and hence this can be construed to mean “function” instead of “comparison”.

Pardon my hurried response.
-Payal
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 27 Mar 2013, 21:55
egmat wrote:
o It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants.


Hi Payal,
Request you to please validate my reasoning for the above sentence. I believe, the sentence is ambiguous because we can infer two VALID meanings

It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants.

Meaning 1 -when we can assume infinitive -> "to run" as Common
It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as {to run} other types of power plants.

Here, Meaning comes out to be that Cost of Running Nuclear plants is same as Cost of running other types of power plants. This is logically parallel

Meaning 2-

It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants{costs}.

Here, we can infer that cost of running nuclear plants is same as cost of other types of power plants i.e we are not comparing cost of running plants but comparing cost of running one type of plant with some other costs of other types of power plants, the costs could be build costs, maintenance costs etc. This is Unparallel

Doubt -
As per parallelism rules, both sides of comparison must be logically parallel. Now, my doubt is can we say that the above sentence is ambiguous because it is conveying two meanings i.e we are not sure what author is trying to compare and our job is to make it logically correct. Correct?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Going by the above concept, Can you please validate my reasoning for the below sentence as well, its taken from OG, though the original sentence may be incorrect for other reasons.

Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than permissive parents

Meaning 1

Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than {are}permissive parents
It can be inferred that comparison is between two types of parents. i.e Authoritative parents have greater chances of children than permissive parents.

Meaning 2
Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than {to have}permissive parents
Now, sentence is comparing the two types of generations. i.e Authoritative parents may have greater possibility of having children(upcoming generation) than having permissive parents(previous generation). Is it illogical meaning? Please put your thoughts across

All, I am trying to understand is that sentence can have two types of ellipsis present. One is with Verb of Subject and another is with Infinitive+direct object. Now, when such is the case can we negate a choice when sentence have this type of ellipsis present even if one Meaning is purely justified and another one is not.


Please share your reasoning.

Thanks
Himanshu
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2013, 01:36
macjas wrote:
While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.

A. While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.
B While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.
C. Even though it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.
D. It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, whereas the electricity they generate is more expensive, stemming from the fixed costs of building nuclear plants.
E. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants.


hi folks,

regarding the solution of this question OG13 SAYS :
The emphatic construction "It is X that does Y"(as in the phrase it is Jane who knows answer)should be used only when there is a compelling reason to emphasize the doer of the action.IN this sentence ,emphatic construction is used without good reason.


i am unable to understand what does this mean and request all experts to share their views on this with examples.

regards
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2013, 05:33
When I did this problem, I ruled out option B for change in meaning. I felt it says that the fixed costs generate electricity.

"While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive."

Could somebody shed some light on this, please?
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2013, 06:05
gmatter0913 wrote:
When I did this problem, I ruled out option B for change in meaning. I felt it says that the fixed costs generate electricity.

"While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive."

Could somebody shed some light on this, please?

Yeah i agree with you its bit convoluted...

let me try anyway..

"While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.

so costs is MAKING electricity expensive....
while THEY is refering to nuclear plants.
if the intention was to say that fixed costs generate electricity then both verbs would have been connected by AND..(sorry this is just my opinion....i cant frame GMAC like choices) :)
LIKE THIS: ......GENERATE..AND MAKE.....
so THEY is refering to NUCLEAR PLANTS....
hope it helps :)
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2013, 08:39
i think if i change "costs" to "cost" in option c it can be considered an asnwer for this question. Please correct me if i am wrong.
c.Even though it cost about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2013, 16:14
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blueseas wrote:
macjas wrote:
While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.

A. While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.
B While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.
C. Even though it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.
D. It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, whereas the electricity they generate is more expensive, stemming from the fixed costs of building nuclear plants.
E. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants.

hi folks,
regarding the solution of this question OG13 SAYS :
The emphatic construction "It is X that does Y"(as in the phrase it is Jane who knows answer)should be used only when there is a compelling reason to emphasize the doer of the action.IN this sentence ,emphatic construction is used without good reason.

I am unable to understand what does this mean and request all experts to share their views on this with examples.

Dear blueseas
The emphatic structure "it is the fixed costs that ..." would be most appropriate if there were several cost sources under consideration, perhaps one that most people commonly thought was the most expensive, and the sentence were saying: no, contrary to what you expect, the fixed building costs are the most expensive, etc. In this sentence, we have emphatic structure, and it's not particularly clear what contrast we are trying to make. If we emphasize one thing, it should be clear --- this thing is being picked out, highlighted, from what other thing or from among what other things.

You will find a few more examples here:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/gmat-idiom ... ed-idioms/

I hope this helps.
Mike :-)
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 27 Aug 2013, 22:48
Quote:
gmatter0913 wrote:

When I did this problem, I ruled out option B for change in meaning. I felt it says that the fixed costs generate electricity.

"While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive."

Could somebody shed some light on this, please?

Yeah i agree with you its bit convoluted...

let me try anyway..

"While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.

so costs is MAKING electricity expensive....
while THEY is refering to nuclear plants.
if the intention was to say that fixed costs generate electricity then both verbs would have been connected by AND..(sorry this is just my opinion....i cant frame GMAC like choices) :)
LIKE THIS: ......GENERATE..AND MAKE.....
so THEY is refering to NUCLEAR PLANTS....
hope it helps :)



Thanks blueseas for your reply.

I understand what you're saying but somewhere I am still not 100% convinced that "they" is not ambiguous. :(

I just have a feeling that this is a very fundamental and an important concept.

I wish it were - "make the electricity nuclear plants generate more expensive"

"Pronoun Ambiguity" is the most scariest topic to me at this point of my preparation.

Experts... please help me!! :cry:
Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other   [#permalink] 27 Aug 2013, 22:48
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