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While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 16 Mar 2013, 12:50
You see, leaving apart too many rules, we need to chose the answer which is best out of the given options. All other choices except for B, in the question above, have noticeable grammar issues. Quite unlike, Choice B, only uses an additional preposition, which if you notice, most other choices uses as well, so...we choose an option which overcomes other more critical grammar issues (the logical comparison and SV error)
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 16 Mar 2013, 20:54
Yes, I do understand that Choice B is best amongst all, and this is what I have mentioned above as well.
But, I also acknowledge the fact that there is always something to learn from every correct official answer, and that learning should be carried forward. That is the only way to improve.


sdas wrote:
You see, leaving apart too many rules, we need to chose the answer which is best out of the given options. All other choices except for B, in the question above, have noticeable grammar issues. Quite unlike, Choice B, only uses an additional preposition, which if you notice, most other choices uses as well, so...we choose an option which overcomes other more critical grammar issues (the logical comparison and SV error)

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 17 Mar 2013, 06:45
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I agree with you fully;
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 17 Mar 2013, 10:05
I am glad to direct my question to Daagh then, what is the context of using this additional preposition? As per the meaning of the sentence, it is not absolutely needed, but again its the best choice out of all, so what is it that we should learn from this choice B, will be keen to know
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 18 Mar 2013, 17:56
Thanks Payal for providing great insights.Kudos to you and your team.

So, preposition can be used in following two ways
1) For removing the ambiguity in the sentence, whether we are comparing subject or object.
e.g John is more interested in video games than {in} his girlfriend. Here, we are comparing objects of prepositions, and we need preposition to clarify the meaning else it will result in ambiguity.
2) The usage of prepositions is as mentioned by you. It could work as a connector with the ellipsis element(that).


2 to 3 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
3. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that among women.


One question - Can we clear off "that" in the final sentence.
i.e The incidence of the disease among men exceeds among women.

I believe, had the sentence been The incidence of the disease among men exceeds women., then the sentence would have been ambiguous, because then the comparison could be b/w the incidence vs women or men or women.

egmat wrote:
Very interesting question Himanshu.
When you are dealing with ellipsis, it always helps to begin from the completely expanded version with all the words and then move your way to the abbreviated version by applying ellipsis along the way. I will do the same here:

Let's consider only the pertinent portion of the sentence.

1. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as the cost of running other types of power plants.
No issues here with the comparison. Both sides of the comparison are grammatically and logically parallel.

Now what if I replace "the cost of running" with "that". After it is obvious that we are comparing cost of running of the two categories of plants. But when I apply this ellipsis, I need something to connect "that" with "other types of power plants".

2. (Without connection with that)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that other types of power plants. WRONG

2. (with correct connection)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that for other types of power plants.
So this is where the preposition "for" comes from.

Now we continue with our ellipsis. We can indeed even omit "that" from here since this omission will not lead to any ambiguity.

3. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants.

So this is how I get to the correct sentence containing "for".

Now let's apply the same on the set of sentences:
1. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence of the disease among women.
1 to 2 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence of the disease among women.
2. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
2 to 3 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
3. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that among women.


Image

So the key thing here is that as you replace or omit words, think about what connections you may need to get the correct sentence. The nature of the two sentences is different. In the Official sentence, the main component - cost of running - took direct object without the need of any preposition. So when we replaced this with "that" we needed a connection - i.e. a preposition. However, in the other example, the main component - incidence of the disease - itself needed a preposition to connect to the object and hence when we replaced it with "that" we did not need to get another preposition.

Thus when you cross-check your work in ellipsis, start from the complete sentence and then work your way to simplified version with replacement words and omitted words.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Payal

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 18 Mar 2013, 18:59
Expert's post
You are absolutely correct in your understanding. And you are dead on about the ambiguity in the sentence if we omit "that among".

Now you asked about the following sentence - i.e. if we only omitted that and retained among.

The incidence of the disease among men exceeds among women.
IMO, this sentence is also ambiguous since it somehow may consider "incidence of that disease among men" as one entity and when this entity is put together with "among women", it would not make sense.

Let's take another example:
Attraction of child to chocolates exceeds to ice cream. - IMO incorrect
Attraction of child to chocolates exceeds that to ice cream. - Surely Correct.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Payal
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 18 Mar 2013, 20:15
TO EGMAT

A says:While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.


though i had eliminated A but i want to know if the initial comparison in A is faulty ?

if i say : nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants . i know that this comparison is oki even without the helping verb "do" because there is no ambiguity

so i get a feeling that in A this initial comparison :While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants seems to be right comparison wise .it might be wrong because of usage of "it" or because of some redundancy but comparison wise it seems oki .
any thought

Last edited by aditya8062 on 19 Mar 2013, 05:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 01:58
TO EGMAT
Quote:
EGMAT quote : (with correct connection)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that for other types of power plants.
So this is where the preposition "for" comes from.

plz tell me is it that the preposition "of" wud have been much better here
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 04:54
egmat wrote:

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Payal


Yes, it does.
Thanks for taking up my queries and responding in detail.

Thanks
H
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 05:05
Hi Aditya,

Let me take a stab on it.

While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants

Whenever, you encounter such questions, always make sure about the presence of Subject-Verb, Object and prepositional phrase.

If there is prepositional phrase, more often than not you have the ambiguity present. You will see that the sentence can be interpreted in two ways.

1) Repeat the MAIN VERB and see what does sentence mean now.
While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants (Costs)

Sentence says that cost of running nuclear plants is same as the cost of other power plants(it may cost of infrastructure, or machinery or something else). Now this is illogical, because for sentence to be logical, you must compare costs of running nuclear plants with cost of running other plants

2) Repeat the preposition before second entity
While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as {to run}other types of power plants
Now, here both the costs are same.

So, in nut shell, we have two different scenarios and hence, it is incorrect.

As far as your reasoning goes for negating choice A, I would refrain myself for using it until and unless I have other better choices.
For example,
it is absolutely correct to say that -

It is I who executes the automation scripts everyday.

Hope it is clear.

Thanks
H

aditya8062 wrote:
TO EGMAT

A says:While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.


though i had eliminated A but i want to know if the initial comparison in A is faulty ?

if i say : nuclear power plants cost twice as much as to run as other power plants . i know that this comparison is oki even without the helping verb "do" because there is no ambiguity

so i get a feeling that in A this initial comparison :While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants seems to be right comparison wise .it might be wrong because of usage of "it" or because of some redundancy but comparison wise it seems oki .
any thought

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 05:10
@himanshu if that is the case then why does this ambiguity does not arise in this comparison : nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants

Quote:
As far as your reasoning goes for negating choice A, I would refrain myself for using it until and unless I have other better choices.


my reasoning of eliminating A was not the initial "it" but the later "it" that comes in the sentence .: nuclear plants that makes it more expensive

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 05:37
aditya8062 wrote:
@himanshu if that is the case then why does this ambiguity does not arise in this comparison : nuclear power plants cost twice as much as to run as other power plants


@ Aditya,

As far as my analysis goes, I think above sentence is equally ambivalent.

Original Sentence
nuclear power plants cost twice as much as to run as other power plants -> as should not be there.- Wrong Idiom. I guess its typo.

Now, going by my framework -
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants

Repeat Preposition phrase
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as {to run }other power plants
Here, cost of running nuclear plants is being compared and
Cost of running nuclear power plants =2* cost of running others

Repeat Main verb
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants do(cost)
This is illogical -
Cost of running nuclear power plants is being compared to cost of other power plants.

I went back to my notes to check if as much as only compares only subjects -This is what I get

1) Comparing Subjects
We have three times as many pears as you(have) - Here it is logical that number of pears =3* as you have. It is illogical to say that number of pears is 3 times as you.
2) Comparing Objects
His knowledge springs as much from experience as from schooling.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks
H
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 06:47
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants
well this sentence is oki comparison wise

Quote:
We have three times as many pears as you

Last edited by aditya8062 on 21 Mar 2013, 02:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 07:01
Quote:
nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants

well this sentence is oki comparison wise

Pardon my knowledge. Request you to please show me your point of view, how the above sentence has a valid comparison. It could be structurally correct but as per me, its logically incorrect


Quote:
We have three times as many pears as you
the reason this sentence is ambiguous is coz "we" ,"pears" and "you" are parallel element and can make different meanings possible (which i guess u might be knowing )


This is perfectly correct sentence. Refer MGMAT, p 144.
I'm afraid if that is your reasoning of making the sentence ambiguous. For clarification, refer e-gmat article on ellipsis, example-

John cooks food better than his wife. - Its perfectly valid . However as per your explanation, its going to be ambiguous.

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 07:07
aditya8062 wrote:
@himanshu if that is the case then why does this ambiguity does not arise in this comparison : nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants

Quote:
As far as your reasoning goes for negating choice A, I would refrain myself for using it until and unless I have other better choices.


my reasoning of eliminating A was not the initial "it" but the later "it" that comes in the sentence .: nuclear plants that makes it more expensive


Can buy that reasoning. This is perfect.
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 07:08
We have three times as many pears as you
well i treated "you" as a group coz "we" can refer to a group .so fine "you" in this sentence is referring to just one person then "pears" cannot be parallel element to "you"

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 07:12
aditya8062 wrote:
all i am intending is that such an ambiguity is not there in my that sentence :nuclear power plants cost twice as much to run as other power plants


Had that been the case, the following example would have been correct by your standards-

Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than permissive parents.

Again - apply framework
Meaning 1
Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than {to have}permissive parents.
Meaning -2
Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than permissive parents{are}

Either you or I going to have a concept clarified, with so much of discussion.
Waiting for experts.

Thanks
H
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 19 Mar 2013, 10:10
Expert's post
egmat wrote:
imhimanshu wrote:
I tried to understand this concept by taking clues from MGMAT, but failed to do so. I would appreciate if someone can help me out.

Here is an example from MGMAT-
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that among women.
Here, that is referring to incidence, per explanantion from MGMAT.

So, ellipsis should be -
The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that(of the disease) among women.
Now, going by same concept -

The cost of running nuclear plants is same as that for electric plants.
In the below sentence, what THAT is referring to . Is it "the cost" or "the cost of running".

If it is later, then why do we require an extra preposition?

The cost of running nuclear plants is same as {the cost of running }for electric plants.

Appreciate your help
Thanks
H


Very interesting question Himanshu.
When you are dealing with ellipsis, it always helps to begin from the completely expanded version with all the words and then move your way to the abbreviated version by applying ellipsis along the way. I will do the same here:

Let's consider only the pertinent portion of the sentence.

1. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as the cost of running other types of power plants.
No issues here with the comparison. Both sides of the comparison are grammatically and logically parallel.

Now what if I replace "the cost of running" with "that". After it is obvious that we are comparing cost of running of the two categories of plants. But when I apply this ellipsis, I need something to connect "that" with "other types of power plants".

2. (Without connection with that)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that other types of power plants. WRONG

2. (with correct connection)
The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as that for other types of power plants.
So this is where the preposition "for" comes from.

Now we continue with our ellipsis. We can indeed even omit "that" from here since this omission will not lead to any ambiguity.

3. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants.

So this is how I get to the correct sentence containing "for".

Now let's apply the same on the set of sentences:
1. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence of the disease among women.
1 to 2 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence of the disease among women.
2. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
2 to 3 - The incidence of the disease among men exceeds the incidence among women.
3. The incidence of the disease among men exceeds that among women.


Image

So the key thing here is that as you replace or omit words, think about what connections you may need to get the correct sentence. The nature of the two sentences is different. In the Official sentence, the main component - cost of running - took direct object without the need of any preposition. So when we replaced this with "that" we needed a connection - i.e. a preposition. However, in the other example, the main component - incidence of the disease - itself needed a preposition to connect to the object and hence when we replaced it with "that" we did not need to get another preposition.

Thus when you cross-check your work in ellipsis, start from the complete sentence and then work your way to simplified version with replacement words and omitted words.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Payal


So OA is B IMO..

@Payal-Can you please confirm...!
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KUDOS please, if you like the post or if it helps :-)

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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 27 Mar 2013, 21:55
egmat wrote:
o It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants.


Hi Payal,
Request you to please validate my reasoning for the above sentence. I believe, the sentence is ambiguous because we can infer two VALID meanings

It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants.

Meaning 1 -when we can assume infinitive -> "to run" as Common
It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as {to run} other types of power plants.

Here, Meaning comes out to be that Cost of Running Nuclear plants is same as Cost of running other types of power plants. This is logically parallel

Meaning 2-

It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants{costs}.

Here, we can infer that cost of running nuclear plants is same as cost of other types of power plants i.e we are not comparing cost of running plants but comparing cost of running one type of plant with some other costs of other types of power plants, the costs could be build costs, maintenance costs etc. This is Unparallel

Doubt -
As per parallelism rules, both sides of comparison must be logically parallel. Now, my doubt is can we say that the above sentence is ambiguous because it is conveying two meanings i.e we are not sure what author is trying to compare and our job is to make it logically correct. Correct?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Going by the above concept, Can you please validate my reasoning for the below sentence as well, its taken from OG, though the original sentence may be incorrect for other reasons.

Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than permissive parents

Meaning 1

Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than {are}permissive parents
It can be inferred that comparison is between two types of parents. i.e Authoritative parents have greater chances of children than permissive parents.

Meaning 2
Authoritative parents are more likely to have children than {to have}permissive parents
Now, sentence is comparing the two types of generations. i.e Authoritative parents may have greater possibility of having children(upcoming generation) than having permissive parents(previous generation). Is it illogical meaning? Please put your thoughts across

All, I am trying to understand is that sentence can have two types of ellipsis present. One is with Verb of Subject and another is with Infinitive+direct object. Now, when such is the case can we negate a choice when sentence have this type of ellipsis present even if one Meaning is purely justified and another one is not.


Please share your reasoning.

Thanks
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Re: While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2013, 01:36
macjas wrote:
While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.

A. While it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes it more expensive for them to generate electricity.
B While the cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as for other types of power plants, the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants make the electricity they generate more expensive.
C. Even though it costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, it is the fixed costs that stem from building nuclear plants that makes the electricity they generate more expensive.
D. It costs about the same to run nuclear plants as for other types of power plants, whereas the electricity they generate is more expensive, stemming from the fixed costs of building nuclear plants.
E. The cost of running nuclear plants is about the same as other types of power plants, but the electricity they generate is made more expensive because of the fixed costs stemming from building nuclear plants.


hi folks,

regarding the solution of this question OG13 SAYS :
The emphatic construction "It is X that does Y"(as in the phrase it is Jane who knows answer)should be used only when there is a compelling reason to emphasize the doer of the action.IN this sentence ,emphatic construction is used without good reason.


i am unable to understand what does this mean and request all experts to share their views on this with examples.

regards
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