A thread for applicants from over-represented pools : The B-School Applications

finmaster

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A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

15 Jun 2012, 18:15

Hi. This thread is dedicated to queries of applicants from over-represented pools such as Indians and Chinese.

I'm an Indian applicant and obviously, in order to stand out from the other Indian applicants, I need to show something extra in almost all aspects of my profile.

Anyways, here's my profile in brief:

Age at matriculation: 28
GMAT: Not yet taken. Scheduled in August.
GPA: 7.27/10
Undergrad: Mechanical Engineering
WE: Worked at Honda Motorcycle & Scooter India for 10 months. Working for the govt. of India as a mechanical engineer since 2008. Received fast-track promotion (in 3 years) last year.
Level 1 candidate in the CFA program, result expected this July.
Extra-curriculars - Not much to talk about. Some small-time engagements during college. Nothing much really.

Target schools: HBS, Stanford, Wharton, Columbia, Sloan, Booth, Haas, Fuqua, Kellogg, Stern, Tuck, ISB, Yale, Cornell, Ross.

I know that's a lot of schools but I'm simply planning to bomb them all. This is my must-do year so I'm planning to apply to all the top ranked schools and hoping to sail through in at least one of them.

I write well and I'm hopeful that with a few months of research on various MBA programs, I shall be able to write some pretty good essays. I have also spoken to my recommenders and I hope the recommendations will shape up just fine as well.

Here's the catch:

I'm severely lacking in extra-currs (extra-curse?) and I believe that given some time, I can take part in a few activities around me and try to buttress that area of my app. Another thing I'd like to demonstrate is my ability to lead and bring change.

Now the question is, given my profile and the fact that I belong to an over-represented pool of applicants, should I apply in Round 1 or Round 2? For the time being, I think it'll be best for me to just work to improve my profile assuming that I'm going to apply in R1 and as the deadlines approach, then I will decide whether to submit in R1 or to postpone to R2.

Although, the plan seems ok, the fact that I'm from an over-represented pool of applicants in which there are so many great people with awesome profiles a lot of whom are going to apply in R1 is weighing heavily on my mind and I'm just not sure what to do.

cheetarah1980

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

16 Jun 2012, 12:42

3

Kudos

rni wrote:

finmaster wrote:

rni wrote:

@finmaster: what kind of activities are you considering?

Well, I myself am completely in the dark on that one. I have started volunteering at a nearby org. and will see how it shapes up. Also, I', planning to eengage myself in a few other activities/hobbies in the coming months.

hmm..the purpose of ECs is not to get a 'tick mark' for your application but to do something that you really like.I think that the adcoms can see right through such activities that are taken just to impress them. You have clearly started community service and ECs 5 months before the application deadlines. Given the plethora of indian candidates who use similar tactics there are a lot of chances that this may backfire. Again, this is just my opinion and others may differ.
Also,you have not taken the gmat yet and do you plan to balance your new ECs/Work/Gmat/community service?

AND why did you take CFA Level 1 ? It is clearly not aligned with your current work stream (Mechanical)

In the end.. 15 colleges !! you would want to slim that down ..

Agree with this assessment 100%. Finmaster it seems as though you're just throwing everything against the wall and seeing what sticks instead of developing a targeted application strategy.
If you want to get involved in some more ECs and hobbies, feel free to do so because it's something you're truly interested in. I doubt that these activities (unless they are very similar to activities in which you've been engaged in the past) would be a compelling piece of your application and like rni said they could actually come across as disingenuous.

First take the GMAT and see where that lands you. You might need a retake which would take time away from working on your applications. Take some time to think about your goals, why you want an MBA, and what type of program you'd be happy at. Do you want to be in a big city? If that's the case, then Johnson, Ross, and Tuck aren't the places for you. Do you want a smaller class? If so, then Wharton and HBS are not the right schools. These are basic criteria that will eliminate some schools right away. After that you want to look at each program and determine what suits you. Are you a fan of case method? Do you want a structured curriculum or more flexibility to take electives when you want? What type of student body do you want to be immersed in? If you haven't even thought about these questions then you need to start ASAP. Start with with the school websites. You will get a good idea of the general program structure. See what clubs the school has that align with your interests. You may even want to email a few current students to ask questions about their experience. Also if you can't visit then go to admissions events in your area. This will give you a chance to meet alums and get a feel for a school. Participate in live chats with admissions officers to learn more about each school's application process.

As it stands you seem a bit scattered. Slow down a bit and put some more thought into building your candidacy and where you will apply. As MDF said, it is more effective to put together 4-6 quality applications that are tailored to each school, then to submit 15 haphazard applications. Good luck!

scleraxis

Current Student

Joined: 14 Jul 2010

Posts: 129

Concentration: Healthcare

Schools: HBS '15 (M) Wharton '15 (A$)

Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

04 Jul 2012, 18:43

2

Kudos

finmaster wrote:

Thanks a lot for the advice and you have nothing to be sorry about. I really appreciate honest words. Truth is bitter. Isn't that the whole point of spending time on a website like this? We get to hear things from experienced people who have been there and done that.

Ok back to topic. Well, that post was a good 20 days ago and since then a lot has changed.

I've decided to apply to top half (7) of my target schools plus one par school in R1 (if I get the time). I want to get an admit by December-January and am reserving the R2 apps (lower half of the target schools) for the worst-case scenario.

I think I might build a pitch for a post-MBA career in corporate finance in consulting for automobile or engineering firms.

Do you think my technical background and participation in the CFA program will hold some value in that regard?

You see, my point of enrolling in the CFA program was simple; I had some free time up my sleeve and wanted to get prepared for B-School. 1.5 years back, I didn't even know how stockmarkets work. I just wanted some knowledge of finance before I entered B-School; that's all. CFA Level 1 was the cheapest option around.

Don't take this the wrong way but, based on your posts, you seem pretty clueless about post-MBA positions and this whole process in general. Why do you want an MBA? What value will it add to your career?

ex21

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Re: A thread for over-represented pools of applicants [#permalink]

15 Jun 2012, 18:22

1

Kudos

I think the sooner the better. When I first started I wondered if I should do Round 1 or Round 2. I think sooner is better but that does not mean rush to submit a round 1 application you can perfect in time for Round 2.

You would be well served to follow your plan to research the schools and understand who you are and what you want. Reach out to the students/alumni at schools. Figure out how your background fits with your career goals and brainstorm your achievements at work to prep for essays and interviews. You do write well so just work on know who you are, what you want, and how you will fit and contribute to the school. Good luck!

ex21

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

15 Jun 2012, 18:56

1

Kudos

It varies by school. Columbia will review them as they come in so that really falls into the sooner the better category. I am not 100% about every school but if they are not rolling then I believe they will start reviewing after the deadline. At least that is what I heard. For what its worth, I submitted my App like 2 hours from the Round 1 deadline for Ross, Tepper, Booth, and Johnson and I was invited to interview at all those schools. Not sure how that is relevant but I figured I'd mention it.

I can't say I know exactly when they review but CBS is definitely the sooner submitted the sooner it is reviewed. The process is a bit of a blackbox so I wouldn't worry too much about the process after you submit, just focus on what you can control ie Resume, essays, goals, & recommenders (which you have). The demands of the application process seems to grow as you get into it so start early.

One blog I found useful for helping me understand the app process and essays, even better than the books I read did:

https://essaysnark.blogspot.com/

I am not saying this is the end all be all. This is a great resource for info on the process and bschool essays but you still need to develop your knowledge of the schools and yourself that I mentioned before. This is my second year of applications and I am still learning new things about the application process. This forum is a great resource as well.

In the effort of honesty, I used essaysnark's essay editing service. I'm not advocating using an admission consultant. Using an admissions consultant can be hit or mess and you need to decide what is right for you.

B

MDF

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

16 Jun 2012, 10:23

1

Kudos

finmaster wrote:

Target schools: HBS, Stanford, Wharton, Columbia, Sloan, Booth, Haas, Fuqua, Kellogg, Stern, Tuck, ISB, Yale, Cornell, Ross.

I know that's a lot of schools but I'm simply planning to bomb them all. This is my must-do year so I'm planning to apply to all the top ranked schools and hoping to sail through in at least one of them.

That's a very long list of schools. Personally, I wouldn't have been able to complete 15 quality applications last year if my life depended on it. Nor would I have wanted to.

You'll get quicker as you move on through subsequent applications, but I still spent 40-60hrs on my best application and probably even longer on my first.

Why don't you take the GMAT, see how your score compares to the aforementioned schools, and then apply to your top 4-5 choices? I think it would be wiser to pour your heart, soul, and time into just a handful of applications instead of spreading yourself thin across 15.

Just my 2 cents.

rni

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GPA: 3.3

Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

16 Jun 2012, 11:29

1

Kudos

finmaster wrote:

rni wrote:

@finmaster: what kind of activities are you considering?

Well, I myself am completely in the dark on that one. I have started volunteering at a nearby org. and will see how it shapes up. Also, I', planning to eengage myself in a few other activities/hobbies in the coming months.

hmm..the purpose of ECs is not to get a 'tick mark' for your application but to do something that you really like.I think that the adcoms can see right through such activities that are taken just to impress them. You have clearly started community service and ECs 5 months before the application deadlines. Given the plethora of indian candidates who use similar tactics there are a lot of chances that this may backfire. Again, this is just my opinion and others may differ.
Also,you have not taken the gmat yet and do you plan to balance your new ECs/Work/Gmat/community service?

AND why did you take CFA Level 1 ? It is clearly not aligned with your current work stream (Mechanical)

In the end.. 15 colleges !! you would want to slim that down ..

rni

Manager

Joined: 26 Feb 2012

Posts: 197

Concentration: Finance, Technology

GPA: 3.3

Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

17 Jun 2012, 00:07

1

Kudos

finmaster wrote:

rni wrote:

finmaster wrote:

I understand what the point of listing EC's is. The thing is, I will have to try and bring some change in the organisation that I work for. I will try to do it and if I succeed, I will then list it in my app, otherwise, I'll just let it go.

The keyword is 'change'.

Look at it this way; if I am able to bring even a small change in an organisation other than my job in the coming 5 months, it could also make some adcom say, "Well, okay it's five-six months and he has obviously done this to tick the box, but at least he has done something rather than nothing."

If I cannot bring any positive change; I'll simply not list that stuff in my app.

That is the whole point of applying to a large number of schools. The probability of one adcom appreciating the effort is higher and all I need is one adcom.

Sounds like a good plan . Which year are you targeting - 2013 or 2014? applying in 2013 doesn't seem plausible.. because you haven't taken the gmat (and toefl) and have not started the applications

2013 it is. I haven't taken the GMAT. Have got it scheduled for 23rd August. I have already taken the TOEFL in April and scored 113.

hmm..so now that you are only talking about the community service (presumably) seems that your plans of pursuing a hobby are already out of the window. Nevertheless, as long as you can show devotion and success to anything you are passionate about,it will always be counted.

rni

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Posts: 197

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

17 Jun 2012, 00:24

1

Kudos

finmaster wrote:

rni wrote:

hmm..so now that you are only talking about the community service (presumably) seems that your plans of pursuing a hobby are already out of the window. Nevertheless, as long as you can show devotion and success to anything you are passionate about,it will always be counted.

Well, I guess the coming 50 days will give me a better idea of what the picture looks like. Fingers crossed.

yep..ur gmat score, L1 result. All the best for both!

scorpionz

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

02 Jul 2012, 03:46

1

Kudos

rsaraiya wrote:

I was born in India but I have lived in US for almost 14 yrs and I'm US citizen but I've been told my many that the shear fact that I'm Indian puts me at a disadvantage. Not sure anyone knows exactly how adcom from each school really look at applicants like us...

You won't be at a disadvantage. You will be considered in the domestic pool, plain n simple..

scleraxis

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

04 Jul 2012, 19:11

1

Kudos

finmaster wrote:

sid05 wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way but, based on your posts, you seem pretty clueless about post-MBA positions and this whole process in general. Why do you want an MBA? What value will it add to your career?

Well, to be honest, I've not zeroed in on that yet. I'm interested in both corporate finance and consulting. However, I'm still researching on how to combine the two in the best possible way.

To put it bluntly....

You are an Indian applicant with mediocre quantitative background, no outstanding extracurricular leadership, and no obvious post-MBA career path? With the schools you are applying to that sounds disastrous. You may need to adjust your own perception of your candidacy.

HaasEWMBA2015

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

04 Jul 2012, 20:43

1

Kudos

Another way to look at your odds is this way. While I don't have the source off-hand, my example will be pretty close to reality. The top schools all average right around 710 - 730 for the GMAT. The average GMAT of the applicant pool will usually be about 20-30 points lower. This means you're not competing with a bunch of 500 point GMAT scores, you're dealing with a bunch of people that scored right around the average, most of whom were denied admission. Of the people denied admission, many did not come from an over-represented applicant pool.

As an Indian applicant, you really need to score higher than the average. As you haven't taken the GMAT yet, just know it can take a considerable amount of time to prepare for. You may also need to retake if you don't score high enough. Also for EC's, you need to get some type of leadership experience. Just randomly choosing ECs to check the box won't help you. As for applying to 15 schools, throwing a bunch of spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks will not work for getting into a top-tier MBA program. You need to write quality essays, have a clear vision of why you want/need an MBA, and really explain why that particular school is the best school for you and your future goals.

Good luck! Just remember, it's a long process and there is always next year if necessary.

afyl128

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

04 Jul 2012, 22:47

1

Kudos

sid05 wrote:

finmaster wrote:

sid05 wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way but, based on your posts, you seem pretty clueless about post-MBA positions and this whole process in general. Why do you want an MBA? What value will it add to your career?

Well, to be honest, I've not zeroed in on that yet. I'm interested in both corporate finance and consulting. However, I'm still researching on how to combine the two in the best possible way.

To put it bluntly....

You are an Indian applicant with mediocre quantitative background, no outstanding extracurricular leadership, and no obvious post-MBA career path? With the schools you are applying to that sounds disastrous. You may need to adjust your own perception of your candidacy.

Agree. You don't seem to have a compelling case for top16 let alone M7. I think M7 is out of reach.. Just my opinion.

But hey you might be an outlier and succesfully apply to 16 schools and yieldm1 admit or more. That would be a success story and an interesting blog.

Anyway you can achieve similar outcomes from a non top16 where you will stand a better chance. Consider it.
I see a lot of successful Indian applicants with some of the following

1 international work experience ideally in the US
2. A prestigious undergrad like IIT (but there are others) or a masters in the US
3 really solid work experience. Think BB IB, consulting or others
4. Some really solid leadership displaying ECs. India provides some excellent opportunities to be involved in really impactful ECs.

You have been given some really good feedback from experienced members here and you have chosen to ignore it. I think people may begin to tire of you. I agree that starting ECS now will have very little bearing on your application, I'd like to think it wouldn't hurt but it may very well. I don't think the CFA will add anything to your candidacy. Level 1 is not viewed as particularly hard and even L3 does not seem to have much impact either. I do t agree with this as the CFA is a very tough program and will aid recruitment efforts IF you are applying to relevant areas, I.e not IB or consulting. Again just my opinion but I echo a lot if the previous posts.

afyl128

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

04 Jul 2012, 23:27

1

Kudos

Fin I feel I've been pretty harsh on you so I'll offer some encouragement.

People above have wisely suggested that you can't do 6-7 quality apps in a round but I say it's possible - pretty improbable but possible.
I did 5 apps in one round in about 5-6 weeks. Result waitlist at one stretch, dinged at another and interviewed/accepted at 3 competitive schools.
I hated my life in that time but I pulled it off. I think if I had 2.5-3 months I could've done 6-7. My apps were not 100% my best but solid all the same.
People say apply 1-2 reach schools but I wish I did more as I think I would've got one.

I would say schools like Duke, Dardenand Ross will be stretches for you. I would say forget H/S/W and consider them a pipe dream. Go for another M7 so you don't die wondering but hit your stretches hard. Consider applying to a few competitive and safeties say 1 or so. In the mean time hit the f@*%# GMAT and give yourself 3 months to write essays ideally. I feel you will need 720+ on the GMAT and forget your EC ambitions. If you fail the CFA forget about retaking in December. good luck!

str1der

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

05 Jul 2012, 00:23

1

Kudos

finmaster wrote:

afyl128 wrote:

Fin I feel I've been pretty harsh on you so I'll offer some encouragement.

People above have wisely suggested that you can't do 6-7 quality apps in a round but I say it's possible - pretty improbable but possible.
I did 5 apps in one round in about 5-6 weeks. Result waitlist at one stretch, dinged at another and interviewed/accepted at 3 competitive schools.
I hated my life in that time but I pulled it off. I think if I had 2.5-3 months I could've done 6-7. My apps were not 100% my best but solid all the same.
People say apply 1-2 reach schools but I wish I did more as I think I would've got one.

I would say schools like Duke, Dardenand Ross will be stretches for you. I would say forget H/S/W and consider them a pipe dream. Go for another M7 so you don't die wondering but hit your stretches hard. Consider applying to a few competitive and safeties say 1 or so. In the mean time hit the f@*%# GMAT and give yourself 3 months to write essays ideally. I feel you will need 720+ on the GMAT and forget your EC ambitions. If you fail the CFA forget about retaking in December. good luck!

Is it that difficult to write 6-7 quality apps in 13 weeks?

Yes - especially for first timers. Plus as you mentioned, you are doing your research as of now. So subtract 2 weeks for that. Plus I dont know when you are taking your GMAT but writing essays before having a score is a BAD idea. you'll focus on one more than the other and the other will suffer. So you are looking at essentially 7-8 weeks. You also need to manage recommendations, plus you would be working so its not like you are writing the whole day. The mind is most active in the mornings, so you would have only 2 days per week to write with a 'fresh mind' Assuming you are a non native, you will travel home. You will spend some time on other activities etc.

The good way to approach this is by looking at schools within your overall plan, which have similar sounding essays. You cannot answer each school's career essays in the same manner. You'll do multiple edits.

You say you 'have to' get in this year? WHY? will the world end? If you dont get in will you be a failure in life? Don't let your desperation take control. be calm, things will work out.

The above may be a grim picture but its reality. target 3-5 apps in each round, more in first (eg: 4/5) and lesser (eg: 3/2) in round 2.

Hope this helps.

scleraxis

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

05 Jul 2012, 06:39

1

Kudos

I'll disagree here a bit and say that I think, personally, 6-7 apps in ~3 months is very doable. However, it does require you to have a good narrative for your career. If you have accomplished a lot then putting together examples for the essays will not be overly difficult.

method

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

05 Jul 2012, 09:54

1

Kudos

@finmaster My advice is to really figure out a coherent story and career path. A lot of people are cross-checking in here, which is what the forum is for, but some things can't really be changed. Focus on what can be shined up going forward, and really that is the story since it will be the crux of both the essays and most interviews.

Going off of the Ross job board, I don't think I've ever seen a GM/consulting posting that even mentions the CFA. So be careful about how you tie something like that in. CFA, from what I understand, is the domain of something like investment management. I'm in somewhat of a similar boat in that I'm capping the CPA and CMA with no intention of ever becoming an accountant. Thankfully, some broader positions do find that appealing, particularly corp dev, some strategy groups, and of course, F500 corp fin. But again, do your research before you start putting pen to paper, which it sounds like you're doing. You're also taking a lot of this firm advice with a good attitude, so I'm confident you're going to do well this cycle. Good luck!

Veranna

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

06 Jul 2012, 08:53

1

Kudos

hey finmaster,

This might be a late response to this post, but I wanted to share my experience as an Indian applicant with a similar background as yours.

Firstly, what cheetarah, scorpionz and others have told you.. take their words as gospel.

While working on your applications, keep in mind that you not only belong to an over represented pool, but also a homogeneous one. What makes Indian applicant pool even more competitive is the stellar academic records. Having a mediocre academics in Indian subset puts you in a weaker position to begin with.
The key is to differentiate yourself from the lot. Find what makes you unique. Don't be different for the sake being different, but find something that will make you stand out in the crowd. I'm sorry to break your bubble, but 'Consulting, Corporate Finance + Engineering' are NOT unique enough, in fact these are a bit cliche. You'll hear this again in again in gmatclub, be as 'specific' as possible, it shows adcom that you've done your homework in your target industries. Make it 'your' story about 'your aspirations'. I've seen my IITian friends with 780 GMAT not getting in anywhere in top 20 schools as they hoped to get a free pass based only an impressive academic & professional resume. Make your application personal.. own it.

Lastly, do not underestimate this application process. It is extremely introspective as well as exhausting. Focus on the schools that you 'love' first, and then work on others, if you get around to it. I applied to UCLA in R2 because I had a spare week or two. It's the only school, out of my six applications, which didn't invite me for an interview or put me on waitlist. I don't think I deserved it either.
You're early in the process, which will give you time to analyze and streamline your efforts. This forum is full of experienced applicants.. try to learn as much as you can.

All the best!

Aximili85

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Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

11 Jul 2012, 02:47

1

Kudos

Did some additional Googling, for:
*Michigan Ross we're on our own, here's a link of banks from our domestic countries Ross' website recommends we approach for loans. For us Indian students, that's going to be hefty Interest rates =S
https://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/IntlFundin ... tion12.pdf

Private US loans are totally off-limits to those of us without US cosigners:
https://www.bus.umich.edu/admissions/fin ... rivate.htm

*Duke: good news ,they have an option "Coastal Federal Credit Union International Student Loan Fuqua is proud to offer a student loan program for international students through Coastal Federal Credit Union (Coastal). Coastal is a successful and long-standing financial institution and does not require a co-signer. You are applying directly for a line of credit with Coastal. A credit union is a bit different from a traditional bank in that you must become a "member" and establish a small savings account of $25 to utilize their loan services. Coastal offers a very competitive rate of prime plus 5% with no fees. With the current prime rate of 3.25%, the rate would be 8.25%."
https://www.fuqua.duke.edu/financial-aid ... aytime-mba

Aximili85

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Location: Costa Rica

Concentration: Healthcare, International Business

Schools: Duke '15 (D) Haas '15 (D) Kellogg '15 (WA) Insead '13 (M) Wharton '15 (D) Ross '15 (A) Booth '15 (D) LBS '14 (WA)

GMAT 1: 710 Q42 V45

GMAT 2: 740 Q48 V42

GPA: 3.3

WE:Research (Consulting)

Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

11 Jul 2012, 03:20

1

Kudos

Berkeley has a non-cosigner option too! There's hope amigos =)
"We have partnered with a credit union to provide a no-cosigner option by assuming some of the risk on your behalf. For more information see the International Student Loans section of the Financial Aid website."
https://www.haas.berkeley.edu/mba/finaid ... dents.html

gmatclubot

Re: A thread for applicants from over-represented pools [#permalink]

11 Jul 2012, 03:20

A thread for applicants from over-represented pools

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