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According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of

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According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of College and University Business Officers, more than three times as many independent institutions of higher education charge tuition and fees of under $8,000 a year than those that charge over $16,000.

A) than those that charge
B) than are charging
C) than to charge
D) as charge
E) as those charging
[Reveal] Spoiler: OA

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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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How about underlining the incorrect part?

Thanks

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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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removing the clutter, the stem reduces to :

more than three times as many institutions charge fees of under $8000 than those that charge over $16,000.

Thus the constn we need to zoom in is : As X........As Y

X - Institutions ( Plural ) , --------this calls for a Plural Y (Those)

leading to E :

more than three times AS many institutions charge fees of under $8,000 a year ................ AS those charging over $16,000.

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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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mohan514 wrote:
is those here referring to independent institutions ...

please explain..
i selected d as i overlooked those in the option


Hi,

Do we have any other Referrent of THOSE other than INSTITUTIONS = what can THOSE refer back to other than institutions = Guess That's the onliest logical antecedent of THOSE in the stimulus.

Lets substitute THOSE = INSTITUTIONS in our equation and see if it still holds :

More than three time AS many INSTITUTIONS charge 8000$...................... AS INSTITUTIONS charging 16000$ ( Seems Logical, Equation still holds )

ie institutions charging 16000 = x , institutions charging 8000 = 3x

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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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Vinay911, not sure if you are still looking for a response on this question. But here it is anyway (I am royally late in responding to this one :( )
As many posters have commented, we have to establish the correct equation here. Simplistically here is the equation we are looking for:

Since your doubt pertains to choices D and E, I will only focus on those. The difference between these two choices is in terms of what is there in the blank below. Choice D has nothing in this blank and choice E has "those that". Now you may question that choice E actually states "those charging". Remember that "those charging" is equivalent of "those that charge".

For example : cow that grazes all day long = cow grazing all day long

Ok now lets look at both constructions in terms of the equation:

Per choice D - More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as ____ charge over $16000
Per choice E - More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as those that charge over $16000

Now what are the entities being compared - colleges that charge < $8000 & colleges that charge > 16000
Choice E clearly states that comparison.

Whereas if you look choice D, it is missing the "COLLEGE" part of the comparison. It only states the "charge" part.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions regarding this.

Regards,
Payal
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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imhimanshu wrote:
Hi Payal,
Isnt the option D a classic case of ellipsis. i.e Colleges is understood by default. Please share your reasoning

Thanks
Himanshu
egmat wrote:

Per choice D - More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as ____ charge over $16000
Per choice E - More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as those that charge over $16000

Now what are the entities being compared - colleges that charge < $8000 & colleges that charge > 16000

Regards,
Payal


Himanshu and IndianExpress,

Let's assume that Choice D is fine with college actually omitted through ellipsis. Now let us bring back this word "college" and read the sentence:
More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as colleges charge over $16000.

Now let us do sentence structure analysis here:
1: More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as
2: colleges charge over $16000.

Now given this sentence, what is the comparison. IMO, the comparison is no longer clear. Are we comparing the number of colleges or are we comparing the action of charging the fees. Per the intended comparison, we need to compare the colleges, more specifically the number of colleges. One side of comparison is the number of colleges with certain characteristic. The other side of comparison is the number of colleges with certain other characteristic. Now to make the above sentence correct we need to add "that" between colleges and charge as follows:

More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as colleges THAT charge over $16000.

Let's take one more set of comparison sentences and see ellipsis at play: Here see how the comparison is no longer between the number of colleges. It is between the action of charging fees.

West coast colleges charge 2X as much fees as east coast colleges.
West coast colleges charge 2X as much fees as east coast colleges do.
West coast colleges charge 2X as much fees as east coast colleges charge.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Payal
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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IndianExpress wrote:
It would also be great if you can clarify the concept behind "those charging" being equivalent to "those that charge". As I understand, "those charging" is present continuous while "those that charge" is simple present.
Thanks a ton!


Hello IndianExpress,

I will now address your question on tense "those charging" and "those that charge".

Those charging
those that charge

Here "charging" is not a verb. So it does not have any verb tense. It is a verb-ing modifier, which definitely represents an action but not in the role of a verb. It basically takes on whatever verb tense the main clause has.

Yesterday night the sky looked beautiful with the stars shining so brightly.
Tonight the sky looks beautiful with the stars shining so brightly.

Notice the verb-ing "shining". Given what I have explained here, please give me your analysis of these two sentences in terms of the timing of the actions - specifically the action of shining of stars.

I look forward to your response. Also, please review this article on verb-ing modifiers

Thanks,

Payal
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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New post 01 Oct 2012, 10:47
Thanks for the amazing explanation Payal. Your explanations are always superb.

I think I am pretty clear on both the concepts now. Just to re-iterate, ellepsis can only be used if there is absolutely no ambiguity regarding the meaning. I think this is the only rule around ellepsis. Let me know if I am not understanding this correctly.
In the sentence in question, choice D actually makes the sentence a little confusing, hence ellepsis cannot be used.

Regarding the verb-ing modifiers, I am actually familiar with the concept that they take the verb tense of the main clause. In fact, verb-ing modifiers are pretty common and I myself might have used them multiple times in the past.
I was somehow not able to apply the concept at the right place, probably need to practice a little more.

In both the sentences that you have mentioned in your post, the verb-ing modifier (shining) does actually take the respective verb tense (looked and looks respectively).

Thanks again!!!!
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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New post 19 Jan 2013, 20:55
egmat wrote:
Vinay911, not sure if you are still looking for a response on this question. But here it is anyway (I am royally late in responding to this one :( )
As many posters have commented, we have to establish the correct equation here. Simplistically here is the equation we are looking for:

Since your doubt pertains to choices D and E, I will only focus on those. The difference between these two choices is in terms of what is there in the blank below. Choice D has nothing in this blank and choice E has "those that". Now you may question that choice E actually states "those charging". Remember that "those charging" is equivalent of "those that charge".

For example : cow that grazes all day long = cow grazing all day long

Ok now lets look at both constructions in terms of the equation:

Per choice D - More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as ____ charge over $16000
Per choice E - More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as those that charge over $16000

Now what are the entities being compared - colleges that charge < $8000 & colleges that charge > 16000
Choice E clearly states that comparison.

Whereas if you look choice D, it is missing the "COLLEGE" part of the comparison. It only states the "charge" part.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions regarding this.

Regards,
Payal


Hi Payal,
Amazing explanation.. I, however, have a doubt here.

Had we had 'as those that charge' as another option, would this have been a better choice?
Its true that we are supposed to choose the best of the 5 answer choices. I am just trying to understand whether parallelism is absolutely needed as in this case, the parallelism is not with respect to structure but with respect to the meaning..

Please let us know which one would be preferred: parallelism with structure or parallelism with meaning.
Regards,
Sach
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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[quote="Sachin9]
Had we had 'as those that charge' as another option, would this have been a better choice?
Its true that we are supposed to choose the best of the 5 answer choices. I am just trying to understand whether parallelism is absolutely needed as in this case, the parallelism is not with respect to structure but with respect to the meaning..

Please let us know which one would be preferred: parallelism with structure or parallelism with meaning.
Regards,
Sach[/quote]

Hi Sachin,

Well, "as those that charge" is certainly the correct construction. However, on GMAT, out of 5 naswer choices, only 1 will be correct. You will never have to choose between two grammatacally as well as logically correct naswer choices.
"as those that charge" and "as those chraging" convey the same meaning. These are just two different ways of writing the same thing and both are equalyy correct. So I doubt, you will ever have to choose from such options.
However, if you had these two options then yes, you would have gone with the later to maintain absolutely identical parallelism in the sentence.

Now, in parallelism, we try to keep the entities as grammatically similar as possible. But, grammatical parallelism must not be maintained at the cost of logical parallelism. Always remember that LOGIC is utmost important in parallelism. Logic governs the grammatical structure of entities in the list. That's why many a times we see "imperfect list" where the entities do not always have identical grammatical structure. We must maintain the identical grammatical structure as long as we can do it. But the logic must be maintained all the time. You may read the following article on this topic that discusses the nuances of this topic:
parallelism-grammar-vs-logic-141946.html

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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arorag wrote:
According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of College and University Business Officers, more than three times as many independent institutions of higher education charge tuition and fees of under $8,000 a year than those that charge over $16,000.

A) than those that charge
B) than are charging
C) than to charge
D) as charge
E) as those charging

gmatter0913 wrote:
I got this question in the GMAT Exam Pack 1. The OA is D. I chose E for obvious reasons. Explanations please?
They are using wordiness to make this tricky. Let's simplify this sentence as much as we can:

Three times as many institutions charge under $8,000 a year than those that charge over $16,000.

Let's plug in our answer options:

(A) Three times as many institutions charge under $8,000 a year than those that charge over $16,000.
Nope. If we use "than", we need to have another noun
(B) Three times as many institutions charge under $8,000 a year than are charging over $16,000.
Ditto
(C) Three times as many institutions charge under $8,000 a year than to charge over $16,000.
Ditto
(D) Three times as many institutions charge under $8,000 a year as charge over $16,000.
(E) Three times as many institutions charge under $8,000 a year as those charging over $16,000.

The sentence pattern is:
<quantity> as many <subject> <verb phrase> as <verb phrase>.
As many voters voted for Bush as voted for Gore.
This is clearly better than the sentence:
As many voters voted for Bush as those voting for Gore.

This one is tricky because the "three times" at the start is somehow inherently confusing. Let's use a different word w/a similar meaning:
Twice as many students buy pizza as buy salad. <-- Awkward, but workable.
Twice as many students buy pizza as those buying salad. <-- Clearly incorrect.
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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The way I see it is as below. Can experts from this forum confirm this, please?

Kindly correct if I am wrong anywhere. This is very important to help my understanding.

Comparisons using the form as...as typically fall in the below categories:

Comparing the numbers

1. Comparison of two groups doing the same action. (My intention is: Number of Americans who buy pizza= 2*(number of Indians who buy pizza)

Different ways:
Twice as many Americans as Indians buy pizza. (or)
Twice as many Americans buy pizza as Indians. (Here " Indians do" is not mentioned. "do" is in ellipsis.)
Twice as many Americans buy pizaa as Indians do.

2. Comparison of two groups doing different actions. (My intention is: Number of Americans who buy pizza=2*(Num of Indians who buy salad)

Different ways:
Twice as many Americans buy pizza as Indians buy salad. (or)
Twice as many Americans buy pizza as Indians who buy salad. <-- is this correct?

3. Comparison of same group doing different actions. (My intention is: Number of Americans who choclate=2*(Num of Americans who buy pizza)

Different ways:
Twice as many Americans buy chocolate as buy pizza. (Here "those" is in ellipsis) (question in this thread)
Twice as many Americans buy chocolate as those who buy pizza. <--- is this correct?
Twice as many Americans buy chocolate as those that buy pizza <--- is this correct?


Comparing Likelihoods

1. Comparison of likelihood of two groups to do the same action

Different ways:
Americans are twice as likely as Indians to buy pizza. (or)
Americans are twice as likely to buy pizza as Indians. (or) (Here "do" is in ellipsis) <--- is this correct?
Americans are twice as likely to buy pizza as Indians do.

2. Comparison of likelihood of the two groups doing different actions

Different ways:
Americans are twice as likely to buy pizza as Indians are to buy salad.

3. Comparison of likelihood of the same group to do different actions

Different ways:
Americans are twice as likely to buy chocolate as to buy pizza.
Americans are twice as likely to buy chocolate as pizza. <--- is this correct?

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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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Basically, we have two different comparison structures here.
(1) Twice as X as Y ==> X and Y must be parallel
(2) X as [....] as Y ==> X and Y must be parallel.


Let see your examples:

Twice as many Americans buy pizza as Indians who buy salad. <-- is this correct?
Correct. We're comparing the number of Americans vs. that of Indians. It doesn't matter what they do, we just compare the number of people.

Twice as many Americans buy chocolate as those who buy pizza. <--- is this correct?
Correct. "those" refers to a "new copy" of Americans. Thus, the sentence compares the number of American to by chocolate with that of Americans who buy pizza.

Twice as many Americans buy chocolate as those that buy pizza <--- is this correct?
Wrong. Absolutely wrong at first sight. "that" never modifies people ==> only "who" can do.

Americans are twice as likely to buy pizza as Indians. (or) (Here "do" is in ellipsis) <--- is this correct?
Correct. The structure is: Americans ...as [........] as Indians... ==> The parallel structure is maintained.

Americans are twice as likely to buy chocolate as pizza. <--- is this correct?
Wrong. The structure is: Americans..as [...] as pizza. The correct structure is: Americans are twice as likely to do buy chocolate as (Americans who are likely) to buy pizza

Hope it helps.
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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Your question is about comparison "the same + Noun... as".

1. Penny has the same shoes as Amy has.
Correct. X has the same shoes as Y does.

2. Penny has the same shoes as Amy's.
Correct. Using possessive noun is one of several ways to omit words in the second part of a comparison.

3. Penny's shoes are the same as Amy's.
Correct. Basically the comparison is: X are the same as Y.

Hope it helps.
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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New post 23 Sep 2013, 20:20
Quote:
1. Penny has the same shoes as Amy has.
Correct. X has the same shoes as Y does.

2. Penny has the same shoes as Amy's.
Correct. Using possessive noun is one of several ways to omit words in the second part of a comparison.

3. Penny's shoes are the same as Amy's.
Correct. Basically the comparison is: X are the same as Y.



Why I asked you this is because I saw an official Q in the form of (2) and it says it is wrong. The OA says "Amy's what", it could be anything. So the OA suggests to write as (1).

So, I got a doubt if (3) is acceptable.

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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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New post 29 Sep 2013, 08:21
egmat wrote:
Vinay911, not sure if you are still looking for a response on this question. But here it is anyway (I am royally late in responding to this one :( )
As many posters have commented, we have to establish the correct equation here. Simplistically here is the equation we are looking for:

Since your doubt pertains to choices D and E, I will only focus on those. The difference between these two choices is in terms of what is there in the blank below. Choice D has nothing in this blank and choice E has "those that". Now you may question that choice E actually states "those charging". Remember that "those charging" is equivalent of "those that charge".

For example : cow that grazes all day long = cow grazing all day long

Ok now lets look at both constructions in terms of the equation:

Per choice D - More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as ____ charge over $16000
Per choice E - More than 3x as many colleges charge certain fees as those that charge over $16000

Now what are the entities being compared - colleges that charge < $8000 & colleges that charge > 16000
Choice E clearly states that comparison.


Whereas if you look choice D, it is missing the "COLLEGE" part of the comparison. It only states the "charge" part.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions regarding this.

Regards,
Payal




According to the new GMATprep exams released a couple days ago, the correct answer is D.

I am so confused... Any ideas why is it correct??
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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gmatter0913 wrote:
Also, kindly comment on the below

1. Penny has the same shoes as Amy has. <-- is this correct?
2. Penny has the same shoes as Amy's. <-- is this correct?
3. Penny's shoes are the same as Amy's. <-- is this correct?


Hello gmatter0913,

I like your doubts as it makes you think and respond accordingly.

Here is my take -
1. Penny has the same shoes as Amy has. <-- is this correct? --Yes, this is correct. Comparison is logical and parallel.
2. Penny has the same shoes as Amy's. <-- is this correct? -- No, this is not correct, for the reason that the comparison is illogical. Here, is an ambiguity in the sentence, what are you comparing? Shoes or persons..

Sentence 2 can be written as -
Penny has the same shoes as shoes of Amy.
Now, you let reader think, what is author trying to compare .. Is it Subject or Object? Is Penny = shoes of Amy or shoes are same..?
rather the constrcution should be-

The below constructions are correct -

Penny's shoes are same as Amy's(shoes)
Penny's shoes are same as Amy's shoes
Penny's shoes are same as that of Amy



Can you tell me which OG question is testing this funda.. > I would like to review it as well.. :) .. let me know , I'll take a dig at that one in the follow up post.

In such constructions, simple concept is.

1- Construction should not be ambiguous.
2- Either compare objects or Subjects.
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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New post 02 Oct 2013, 00:20
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gmatter0913 wrote:
I got this question in the GMAT Exam Pack 1. The OA is D. I chose E for obvious reasons. Explanations please?



There is no such obvious reasons for picking E, though I also picked choice E. But on reviewing, I found that I had made a blunder. :)

Quote:
According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of College and University Business Officers, more than three times as many independent institutions of higher education charge tuition and fees of under $8,000 a year than those that charge over $16,000.

A) than those that charge
B) than are charging
C) than to charge
D) as charge
E) as those charging


E ) just made us fool, by making us think that subjects are being compared appropriately. However, it is not.
As, charging is participle.. , and you can safely ignore the modifier and see if it makes sense. It doesn't

D) on the other hand, D is classic answer, here subject is in ellipsis

more than three times as many independent institutions of higher education charge tuition and fees of under $8,000 a year as(independent institutions of higher education) charge over $16,000.

The sentence trying to compare the Number of education institutes with certain characteristic

Here, is the example that may help you-

In Indian Marriages, More people drink than (people) eat. Here, we are comparing that number of people who drink is more than the number of people who eat. -> this is the structure of the correct answer choice.

Here is the incorrect one
In Indian marriages, as many people drink beer as people drinking wine. -> Replace drink with charge -

Here the sentence can be written as -

In Indian marriages, as many people drink beer as people drinking wine. - this is non sensical.

Makes sense..? let me know if you have any doubt.

In summary, E is wrong for the simple reason that Verb is not present.
Regards
Himanshu
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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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New post 02 Oct 2013, 00:40
Quote:
Twice as many Americans buy pizza as Indians buy salad. (or)
Twice as many Americans buy pizza as Indians who buy salad.


In this context, I think the above comparison is logical, however, I would definitely mark an option where I have,
The number of American buying pizza is greater than the number of Indians buying salad. ->Comparison is Logical.

However, had the context been,
Twice as many Americans buy pizza as Americans who buy salad - This would be wrong, for the simple reason that the two different sets are not mutually exclusive. you have to have the sets as mutually exclusive. --> it would have been incorrect.

The same thing is happening in Choice E as well.


as in --

Indians who buy pizza are twice the Indians who buy salads.

Let me know in case of any doubts.

Regards,
imhimanshu
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Last edited by imhimanshu on 02 Oct 2013, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of [#permalink]

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New post 02 Oct 2013, 00:44
Below are the two official questions that test the above concept. Request your comments.

Quote:
Because of the Sun, which is 400 times larger than the Moon, but also 400 times farther away from Earth, so both the Sun and the Moon have the same apparent size in the sky.

Wrong option
Four hundred times larger than the Moon and 400 times farther away from Earth, the Sun has the same apparent size in the sky as the Moon's.

The OA explanation says that the comparison is not clear in this option. It says "Moons what?"


Now, there is another GMAT Question Pack 1 question

Quote:
Because fish look through water, their eyes are very different from a mammal.

A. from a mammal
B. from a mammal's
C. from that of a mammal
D. than that of a mammal
E. than is a mammal's

OA is B here.


Can you shed some light on this contradiction?

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Re: According to a 1996 survey by the National Association of   [#permalink] 02 Oct 2013, 00:44

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