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According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value

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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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21 Feb 2014, 08:12
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For such questions it is always good to cut the crap and make your own simple small sentences to predict the balance of comparison.

I have more chocolates than you (have).

B. wild animals have less total fat than livestock (have) : thus a noun + verb is expected to balance the comparison.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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29 Jun 2014, 08:03
PiyushK wrote:
TGC wrote:
Since I do poorly on comparisons, here is my query.

As per B:

wild animals have less total fat than livestock

Now is the livestock behaving as an object or the subject?

Meaning 1: Animals have less total fat than livestock do. (Livestock behaving as subject)

Meaning 2: Animals have less total fat than they have livestock. (Livestock behaving as object for the subject 'animals).

Please advise !

Yes you are absolutely correct in your analysis.

B.wild animals have less total fat than livestock --- fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be
C.wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock --- fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be

Comparison in B is ambiguous. As per my observation whatever stuff comes between more/less and than should actually be compared on the other side of than.

C.wild animals have less total fat than that(total fat) of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be

Further I don't see anything wrong with C.

But again the OA is (B) and not (C).

For example the below sentences:

John has less money than Peter(has).

We cannot say here.

John has less money than that of Peter.

What Say ?
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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29 Jun 2014, 10:11
TGC wrote:
PiyushK wrote:
TGC wrote:
Since I do poorly on comparisons, here is my query.

As per B:

wild animals have less total fat than livestock

Now is the livestock behaving as an object or the subject?

Meaning 1: Animals have less total fat than livestock do. (Livestock behaving as subject)

Meaning 2: Animals have less total fat than they have livestock. (Livestock behaving as object for the subject 'animals).

Please advise !

Yes you are absolutely correct in your analysis.

B.wild animals have less total fat than livestock --- fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be
C.wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock --- fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be

Comparison in B is ambiguous. As per my observation whatever stuff comes between more/less and than should actually be compared on the other side of than.

C.wild animals have less total fat than that(total fat) of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be

Further I don't see anything wrong with C.

But again the OA is (B) and not (C).

For example the below sentences:

John has less money than Peter(has).

We cannot say here.

John has less money than that of Peter.

What Say ?

See ultimately Peter has is also referring to the money.
I can also say:
John has less money than money Peter has.
John has less money than Peter -- is also fine because here we do not have any kind of ambiguity in comparison.

If option B is OA then I think Author considers livestock unambiguous, and livestock holds equal stature as wild animals. Like Peter in your example.

I think we should ask some expert to help on this.
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According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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29 Jun 2014, 10:37
I read other forums as well. Lots of confusion was going on between B and C.
Refer following thread: Even this question is declared bogus question as no answer choice is correct.
http://www.urch.com/forums/gmat-sentenc ... ons-3.html

Further B is least erroneous choice.

I will have to accept that my understanding related to what is being compared in this question was not correct.

snippet from link shared above:
Walkers Lites and Potato Heads contain 33% less total fat than Walkers crisps.
"Reduced-fat" ice cream contains at least 25 percent less total fat than the regular product.
Body mass indices did not demonstrate that men had less total fat than women.
Peanuts actually have less total fat than most other nuts.
Turkey has less total fat than other meats.
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According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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29 Jun 2014, 10:48
Refer official question: Confusion ??

Official Guide 10th SC #19:
In addition to having more protein than wheat does, the protein in rice is higher quality than that in wheat, with more of the amino acids essential to the human diet.

A. the protein in rice is higher quality than that in
B. rice has protein of higher quality than that in (correct)
C. the protein in rice is higher in quality than it is in
D. rice protein is higher in quality than it is in
E. rice has a protein higher in quality than (wrong)

Ron's explanation to above question :
"#19 is interesting. there's still LOGICAL parallelism - you have the protein contained in rice, and you have the protein contained in wheat - but the GRAMMATICAL parallelism isn't lock-step: you have "rice has protein" vs. "that in wheat". in other words, while both halves refer to the protein contained in a particular type of food, they do so in slightly different ways. The lesson here is that we shouldn't complain, but, rather, we should learn: if the logical parallelism is absolutely clear, then the gmat will tolerate slight anomalies from the ideal of exact grammatical parallelism."

According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value of meat from wild animals and meat from domesticated animals, wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is good for cardiac health.

A.wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is
B.wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be
C.wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be
D.total fat of wild animals is less than livestock fed on grain and they have more fat of a kind thought to be
E.total fat is less in wild animals than that of livestock fed on grain and more of their fat is of a kind they think is
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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29 Jun 2014, 14:21
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PiyushK wrote:
Refer official question: Confusion ??

Official Guide 10th SC #19:
In addition to having more protein than wheat does, the protein in rice is higher quality than that in wheat, with more of the amino acids essential to the human diet.

A. the protein in rice is higher quality than that in
B. rice has protein of higher quality than that in (correct)
C. the protein in rice is higher in quality than it is in
D. rice protein is higher in quality than it is in
E. rice has a protein higher in quality than (wrong)

Ron's explanation to above question :
"#19 is interesting. there's still LOGICAL parallelism - you have the protein contained in rice, and you have the protein contained in wheat - but the GRAMMATICAL parallelism isn't lock-step: you have "rice has protein" vs. "that in wheat". in other words, while both halves refer to the protein contained in a particular type of food, they do so in slightly different ways. The lesson here is that we shouldn't complain, but, rather, we should learn: if the logical parallelism is absolutely clear, then the gmat will tolerate slight anomalies from the ideal of exact grammatical parallelism."

According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value of meat from wild animals and meat from domesticated animals, wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is good for cardiac health.

A.wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is
B.wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be
C.wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be
D.total fat of wild animals is less than livestock fed on grain and they have more fat of a kind thought to be
E.total fat is less in wild animals than that of livestock fed on grain and more of their fat is of a kind they think is

PiyushK wrote:
Lots of confusion is going on following question in comparison to one old official question.
I am in favor of option C, but few experts are in favor of B, whereas one official answer is supporting my point. Could you please help me to understand why C is wrong

if I say : I have less money than that in box << would it be fine ??
I believe both B and C are correct styles of setting comparison because we are comparing total fats of both kinds of animals.

Dear PiyushK,
I am happy to respond to your p.m., my friend. First of all, on the tricky topic of omitting words in parallel, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/dropping-c ... -the-gmat/

In the OG question (OG10, SC #19), choice (B) is clearly the right answer ---- "rice has protein of a higher quality than the protein in wheat". The demonstrative pronoun (that, those) refer to a word or phrase explicitly mentioned earlier in the sentence. Since "protein" was mentioned, literally and explicitly, at an earlier point in the sentence, we can use "that" to substitute for it.

Now, the animal fat question. Hmmm. I don't know the source of this question, but I don't think it's a good question. When the word "than" follows a direct object, the comparison can be with either the subject or the object. In (C), if "that" stands for "total fat", then we are comparing object to object, which is correct. I know the MGMAT folks say that (B) is right and (C) is wrong, and they're very smart, but I say that a strong case can be mounted for either (B) or (C), and because of this, this is not a very well written question. This question is not up to the high standards of the GMAT.

In your sentence:
I have less money than that in box
the big problem is the missing article before "box"
I have less money than that in the box.
We could also phrase that as:
I have less money than is in that box.
This last version might be best, but the second version is logical & grammatical correct, if not completely idiomatically natural.

Does all this make sense?
Mike
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According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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29 Jun 2014, 14:37
mikemcgarry wrote:
PiyushK wrote:
Refer official question: Confusion ??

Official Guide 10th SC #19:
In addition to having more protein than wheat does, the protein in rice is higher quality than that in wheat, with more of the amino acids essential to the human diet.

A. the protein in rice is higher quality than that in
B. rice has protein of higher quality than that in (correct)
C. the protein in rice is higher in quality than it is in
D. rice protein is higher in quality than it is in
E. rice has a protein higher in quality than (wrong)

Ron's explanation to above question :
"#19 is interesting. there's still LOGICAL parallelism - you have the protein contained in rice, and you have the protein contained in wheat - but the GRAMMATICAL parallelism isn't lock-step: you have "rice has protein" vs. "that in wheat". in other words, while both halves refer to the protein contained in a particular type of food, they do so in slightly different ways. The lesson here is that we shouldn't complain, but, rather, we should learn: if the logical parallelism is absolutely clear, then the gmat will tolerate slight anomalies from the ideal of exact grammatical parallelism."

According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value of meat from wild animals and meat from domesticated animals, wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is good for cardiac health.

A.wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is
B.wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be
C.wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be
D.total fat of wild animals is less than livestock fed on grain and they have more fat of a kind thought to be
E.total fat is less in wild animals than that of livestock fed on grain and more of their fat is of a kind they think is

PiyushK wrote:
Lots of confusion is going on following question in comparison to one old official question.
I am in favor of option C, but few experts are in favor of B, whereas one official answer is supporting my point. Could you please help me to understand why C is wrong

if I say : I have less money than that in box << would it be fine ??
I believe both B and C are correct styles of setting comparison because we are comparing total fats of both kinds of animals.

Dear PiyushK,
I am happy to respond to your p.m., my friend. First of all, on the tricky topic of omitting words in parallel, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/dropping-c ... -the-gmat/

In the OG question (OG10, SC #19), choice (B) is clearly the right answer ---- "rice has protein of a higher quality than the protein in wheat". The demonstrative pronoun (that, those) refer to a word or phrase explicitly mentioned earlier in the sentence. Since "protein" was mentioned, literally and explicitly, at an earlier point in the sentence, we can use "that" to substitute for it.

Now, the animal fat question. Hmmm. I don't know the source of this question, but I don't think it's a good question. When the word "than" follows a direct object, the comparison can be with either the subject or the object. In (C), if "that" stands for "total fat", then we are comparing object to object, which is correct. I know the MGMAT folks say that (B) is right and (C) is wrong, and they're very smart, but I say that a strong case can be mounted for either (B) or (C), and because of this, this is not a very well written question. This question is not up to the high standards of the GMAT.

In your sentence:
I have less money than that in box
the big problem is the missing article before "box"
I have less money than that in the box.
We could also phrase that as:
I have less money than is in that box.
This last version might be best, but the second version is logical & grammatical correct, if not completely idiomatically natural.

Does all this make sense?
Mike

Thanks allot Mike.
Even I was feeling that both B and C are strong contenders and I agree with you that this problem is not up to the standards of GMAT.
On other forum, one instructor called it a bogus question. . On MGMAT forum explanation was so flat that it intrigued me to PM you.

all clear !!
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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30 Jun 2014, 01:22
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TGC wrote:
Since I do poorly on comparisons, here is my query.

As per B:

wild animals have less total fat than livestock

Now is the livestock behaving as an object or the subject?

Meaning 1: Animals have less total fat than livestock do. (Livestock behaving as subject)

Meaning 2: Animals have less total fat than they have livestock. (Livestock behaving as object for the subject 'animals).

Please advise !

Responding to a pm:

The structure needs to be parallel when you compare.

A has better P than does B.
The verb 'has' demands the verb 'does'.

Error 1:
A has better P than B - incorrect
Makes you think that you are comparing P with B - both of which A has!

Error 2:
A has better P than that of B - incorrect
As said above, verb 'has' demands a verb.

When is 'than that of' correct?
We use “than that of” when we compare an attribute or a possession of two objects.
For example, the correct use of 'than that of' will be "A's P is better than that of B"
or "His job is even more complicated than that of a pilot."

B.wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be
Not good - Error 1

C.wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be
Not good - Error 2

But as we see from the official questions (this one and the rice protein one) both structures are acceptable. Honestly, I hope GMAT does not give you such constructions in correct options.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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07 Mar 2015, 20:02
wild animals have less total fat than wild animals livestock fed on grain

In the above sentence, do you get any logical meaning? What are you comparing with?

A comparison becomes ambiguous only if it gives two logical meaning.

Last edited by Raihanuddin on 07 Mar 2015, 20:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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07 Mar 2015, 20:06
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Pags wrote:
Isn't B ambiguous?
I mean, it could both mean:
wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain have
or
wild animals have less total fat than wild animals livestock fed on grain

Logically, we know that the first one is correct, but it is still ambiguous.

wild animals have less total fat than wild animals livestock fed on grain

In the above sentence, do you get any logical meaning? What are you comparing with?

A comparison becomes ambiguous only if it gives two logical meaning.

Example- Farhan has more fascination to money than his wife

Two meaning-- 1. Farhan has more fascination to money than his wife has fascination to money
2. Farhan has more fascination to money than he has fascination to his wife
In the example both the sentences give logical meaning. So, the main sentence is ambiguous.

But--- If we say -- Farhan eats more fruits than his wife
1. Farhan eats more fruits than his wife eats fruits
2. Farhan eats more fruits than he eats his wife---- Illogical.
So this sentence is not ambiguous.

For the same reason B is not incorrect.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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20 Jul 2015, 00:28
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A. wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is
-> There is no referent of they.

B. wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be
-> Correct - the comparison is correct. We are comparing Wild animals to livestock.

C. wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be

The that here refers to the fat and if we put it back in the original sentence the sentence becomes
Wild animals have less total fat than fat of livestock .....
-> comparing wild animals to fat.

D. total fat of wild animals is less than livestock fed on grain and they have more fat of a kind thought to be
-> Total fat compared to livestock

E. total fat is less in wild animals than that of livestock fed on grain and more of their fat is of a kind they think is
-> no referent of they and this choice is way too wordy.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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A. wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is --- they has no proper antecedent

B. wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be ------ the correct choice with proper comparison and with no pronoun problems

C. wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be --- comparison between wild animals and that of meaning ‘total fat’ is wrong

D. total fat of wild animals is less than livestock fed on grain and they have more fat of a kind thought to be -- comparison between total fat and livestock is wrong.

E. total fat is less in wild animals than that of livestock fed on grain and more of their fat is of a kind they think is --They has no referent.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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10 Feb 2016, 23:10
dave785 wrote:
Compare wild animals to livestock,

C. compares wild animals (themselves) to the fat (of livestock) and is therefore wrong.

I got B. is that correct?

I think the interpretation of B is as:

Wild animal has X and Y

X= total fat & Y = livestock fed on grains.

Hence B say : Wild animals has less total fat than livestock fed grain. in this case , B is wrong.

please throw some light on it.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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24 Feb 2016, 05:38
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robu wrote:
dave785 wrote:
Compare wild animals to livestock,

C. compares wild animals (themselves) to the fat (of livestock) and is therefore wrong.

I got B. is that correct?

I think the interpretation of B is as:

Wild animal has X and Y

X= total fat & Y = livestock fed on grains.

Hence B say : Wild animals has less total fat than livestock fed grain. in this case , B is wrong.

please throw some light on it.

Wild animal has less fat than Domestic animals - Comparison between wild and domestic animal. Which is correct.
The fat of wild animal is less than Domestic animal - Wrong comparison. Here the fat is compared with the Domestic animal.
The fat of wild animal is less than that of Domestic animal - Correct comparison. Here the fat of Wild animal compared with fat of domestic animal.

Option 'C' can be treated as redundant.

Rosy is more tall than that of Nancy ---> Rosy is more tall than tall of nancy --(Doesn't make sense.) Here the object that we are comparing falls inside the comparison statement "MORE.. THAN". Hence its clear and there is no ambiguity in comparison. But the right comparison is "Rosy is more tall than nancy is" . If both the verbs are going to be the same we can ignore. Hence we can say " Rosy is more tall than Nancy".

Laos has a land area about the same as Great Britain --> Here if you saw the object of the sentence "THE LAND AREA" is not presented inside any comparison term. In that case we can say that the OBJECT is compared with the SUBJECT. Here the LAND AREA is compared with the GREAT BRITAIN which is wrong. Here the usage of that makes sense. [http://gmatclub.com/forum/laos-has-a-land-area-about-the-same-as-great-britain-but-107156.html]

If the same has been stated as "Laos has more land area than Great Britain" - Correct comparison.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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27 Apr 2016, 04:06
OA is B according to eGMAT.

The question is from OG 16, nº116.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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13 May 2016, 13:14
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robu wrote:
dave785 wrote:
Compare wild animals to livestock,

C. compares wild animals (themselves) to the fat (of livestock) and is therefore wrong.

I got B. is that correct?

but I think in B , the comparison seems between the total fat and live stock.

please clarify.

It is allowed to omit the repeated part from the second element of comparison,even verbs, if the meaning is clear.

Wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain (have).

However on certain occasions this dropping of repeated element is not correct:

I love sweets more than Jina.

The above sentence can have two meanings:

I love sweets. I love Jina. But I love sweets more than I love Jina.
I love sweets. Jina love sweets. But I love sweets more than Jina does.

However such ambiguity is not there in option B, and hence the verb can be dropped since the alternative " Wild animals have less total fat than (they have) livestock fed on grain" would be senseless.
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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20 Jul 2016, 21:20
duttarupam wrote:
According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value of meat from wild animals and meat from domesticated animals, wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is good for cardiac health.

A. wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is

B. wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be

C. wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be

D. total fat of wild animals is less than livestock fed on grain and they have more fat of a kind thought to be

E. total fat is less in wild animals than that of livestock fed on grain and more of their fat is of a kind they think is

OG16 SC111

[Reveal] Spoiler:
B

Please explain

This question tests comparison concepts.
We need to find the option that correctly compares the wild animals with the livestock or fat with fat.
On checking the options

We can remove options C and D
The options A and E contain "they" that has no clear referent.

The choice that removes all these errors is option B
Correct option: B
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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08 Aug 2016, 00:03
According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value of meat from wild animals and meat from domesticated animals, wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is good for cardiac health.

Wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain.
Further, wild animals have a kind of fat that is considered good for cardiac health.

A. wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is

B. wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be => correct

C. wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be : if you rephrase it: wild animals have less total fat than fat of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be

D. total fat of wild animals is less than livestock fed on grain and they have more fat of a kind thought to be

E. total fat is less in wild animals than that of livestock fed on grain and more of their fat is of a kind they think is
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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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04 Nov 2016, 19:36
duttarupam wrote:
According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value of meat from wild animals and meat from domesticated animals, wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is good for cardiac health.

A. wild animals have less total fat than do livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat they think is

B. wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain and more of a kind of fat thought to be

C. wild animals have less total fat than that of livestock fed on grain and have more fat of a kind thought to be

D. total fat of wild animals is less than livestock fed on grain and they have more fat of a kind thought to be

E. total fat is less in wild animals than that of livestock fed on grain and more of their fat is of a kind they think is

Hi Expert,
can you help me by finding out my mistake in this regard?
I’m totally stuck with this sentence. The sentence is going to compare between meat from ‘wild animals’ and meat from ‘domesticated animals’.
B says that:
----------wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain.
If I say: He is less successful than his father’s.
Or, He is less successful than his father does.
I’m not sure whether my sentence is right or wrong. If my above sentence is right, then same application should be used here.
Is it something like??: ------------ wild animals have less total fat than wild animals have livestock fed on grain. If this is the case, then it makes me confused. If I apply my example here, then I’ll get it as below:
--------------- wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain have.
Or, ------------ wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed’s on grain.
Or, ------------- wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain does.

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Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value [#permalink]

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05 Nov 2016, 13:07
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iMyself wrote:
Vyshak wrote:
iMyself wrote:
Hi Expert,
can you help me by finding out my mistake in this regard?
I’m totally stuck with this sentence. The sentence is going to compare between meat from ‘wild animals’ and meat from ‘domesticated animals’.
B says that:
----------wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain. - Correct. Compares the fat wild animals have to the fat that livestock (fed on grain) have.
If I say: He is less successful than his father’s. - Father's is totally awkward here. Father's what? Here you must compare the success between 2 persons --> He is less successful than his father.
Or, He is less successful than his father does. - Again 'does' indicates some action performed by the father. Here you are comparing the success between 2 persons and not each others actions. So usage of 'does' is not valid.
I’m not sure whether my sentence is right or wrong. If my above sentence is right, then same application should be used here.
Is it something like??: ------------ wild animals have less total fat than wild animals have livestock fed on grain. If this is the case, then it makes me confused. If I apply my example here, then I’ll get it as below:
--------------[i]- wild animals have less total fat than livestock fed on grain [color=#ff00ff]have.[/color] - This is the only correct version.

So, where is 'have' in the main sentence?
Thanks...

In addition to Vyshak's response, you may find the following note about omission useful:

In a parallel structure, it is alright to omit repeated parts (even verbs) IF the meaning is not obscured.

I like sweets more than Jane.
The above sentence is ambiguous because it may have two meanings:
1. I like sweets more than (I like) Jane.
2. I like sweets more than Jane (likes sweets).
In such cases omission is not acceptable.

However , in option B, such ambiguity does not arise:
Wild animals have less total fat than livestock.
Compare with the previous example:
1. Wild animals have less total fat than (they have) livestock.
2. Wild animals have less total fat than livestock (have fat).
The first sentence does not make sense and hence omission of "have fat" is acceptable.
Re: According to recent studies comparing the nutritional value   [#permalink] 05 Nov 2016, 13:07

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