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An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t

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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 30 Sep 2009, 04:54
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kairoshan wrote:
I also thought the answer would be E, but the brutal SC thread shows that OA is C. Does anybody have a clue? I also have other brutal SC thread problems that I am not clear with OAs, and couldn't find clear explanations from previous thread because some thread shows different opinions. So I decided to post all the confusing ones here again, so please feel free to leave your comments.



After a more careful analysis, i feel that OA is correct. I initially chose E but now I think C is correct.

E is not correct because of incorrect usage of "that". "that"should refer to singular noun. In E, "that" is referring to employment rates.
E would have been correct without "that are"

C - Correct
falling employment rates triggered by a drop in investment, which cause cutbacks in consumer spending, starting a cycle of layoffs that lead to even lower employment rates.

"falling inteterst rates triggered by a drop in investment" is correct. Identifier "that" is not required to refer back to the interest rates. "THAT" is used as identifier to refer back to ONE rate among many rates.

The use of "which" is also correct in the sentence.
It is a general understanding that which refers to the WORD preceded by ",". In this case "which" seems to refer to investment. BUT the correct use of which is to refer back to the NOUN/NOUN CLAUSE preceding the ","
Here "which" is refering to the noun clause "drop in investment" and not "investment.


Nice question. It took me a day of figure out why C is correct. kudos for you.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 30 Sep 2009, 08:00
duttarupam wrote:
kairoshan wrote:
I also thought the answer would be E, but the brutal SC thread shows that OA is C. Does anybody have a clue? I also have other brutal SC thread problems that I am not clear with OAs, and couldn't find clear explanations from previous thread because some thread shows different opinions. So I decided to post all the confusing ones here again, so please feel free to leave your comments.



After a more careful analysis, i feel that OA is correct. I initially chose E but now I think C is correct.

E is not correct because of incorrect usage of "that". "that"should refer to singular noun. In E, "that" is referring to employment rates.
E would have been correct without "that are"

C - Correct
falling employment rates triggered by a drop in investment, which cause cutbacks in consumer spending, starting a cycle of layoffs that lead to even lower employment rates.

"falling inteterst rates triggered by a drop in investment" is correct. Identifier "that" is not required to refer back to the interest rates. "THAT" is used as identifier to refer back to ONE rate among many rates.

The use of "which" is also correct in the sentence.
It is a general understanding that which refers to the WORD preceded by ",". In this case "which" seems to refer to investment. BUT the correct use of which is to refer back to the NOUN/NOUN CLAUSE preceding the ","
Here "which" is refering to the noun clause "drop in investment" and not "investment.


Nice question. It took me a day of figure out why C is correct. kudos for you.



I am not quite clear with your explanation.
That is a relative conjuntion, which can take either a singular noun or a plural noun.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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i still dont feel C is the answer i opt E

there is a similar Q with diff options posted in
http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/an- ... t1071.html

for this Q the OA is C (agree with it)
may be the OA we are refering to is for this Question. please look the Question and confirm :?
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 30 Sep 2009, 23:42
one thing i quite clear which can not refer to a phrase
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 02 Oct 2009, 18:50
The Brutal SC document is great; it really has brutal questions. But it also has typos (have gone over the first 35 and found typos on q11 & q21), and some very poor questions.

This question is horrible. I hope that not too many people are falling into the trap of trying to justify a bad answer.

Chandru42: thanks for finding that Manhattan GMAT post. It has the good version of this question.

It is clear that the answer could only be C or E. But both are wrong.

C
-> "which cause" is unclear. I do not agree with the previous poster. It could refer to either "employment rates" or "drop in investment". It is "falling employment rates" that cause the "cutbacks in consumer spending".
-> "cutbacks in consumer spending" do not start "a cycle of layoffs"; "falling employment rates" do.
-> "which cause cutbacks in consumer spending, starting a cycle of layoffs" lacks parallelism.

E
-> "that are triggered by" is wordy
-> "leading" should be replaced by "that lead to"; doing so would add clarity to the sentence.

E is wordy. C is ambiguous and distorts the meaning of the sentence. If forced to choose between C or E, I would go for E.

Here's the answer C provided in the Manhattan post: "c. falling employment rates triggered by a drop in investment, causing cutbacks in consumer spending and starting a cycle of layoffs that lead to even lower employment rates." This question was taken from a Manhattan GMAT CAT.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 03 Oct 2009, 06:38
riteshbindal wrote:
Is it E?


It is neither C or E. But OA is C.

See http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/an- ... t1071.html
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 31 Oct 2009, 08:01
The word "which" modifies the word directly in front of it. In this case, the phrase "which cause cutbacks in consumer spending" modifies "investment." This doesn't sound right at all.

It seems that the Manhattan version, a clear and easy question, does not match the Brutal SC version. This discrepancy, I think, explains the confusion surrounding this problem.

Nice observation, guys!
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 03 Nov 2009, 01:35
That vs Which


Both of these sentences are correct in GMAT :
· Please go into the room and get me the big book, which is mine.
· Please go into the room and get me the big book that is mine.



· Please go into the room and get me the big book, which is mine.

In this sentence, the clause which is mine is "extra" because the information "the big book" is
enough to identify which book it is that you want. We can assume that there is only one big book
in the room.
· Please go into the room and get me the big book that is mine.

In this sentence, the clause that is mine is "necessary" because the information "the big book" is
NOT enough to identify which book it is that you want--it is probably the case that there are
several big books in the room, so I need to add the information "that is mine" to identify which
book it is that I want


Now coming back to problem



E.falling employment rates that are triggered by a drop in investment, causing cutbacks in consumer spending and starting a cycle of layoffs leading to even lower employment rates.


Here That is referring to Specific type of employment rates triggered by a drop in investment, causing cutbacks in consumer spending and starting a cycle of layoffs leading to even lower employment rates.

It also means other employments rates are not triggered by a drop in investment, causing cutbacks in consumer spending and starting a cycle of layoffs leading to even lower employment rates.

so E is Illogical.


If you consider C

falling employment rates triggered by a drop in investment, which cause cutbacks in consumer spending, starting a cycle of layoffs that lead to even lower employment rates.

Here the clause which cause cutbacks is extra even if u omit which its not gonna affect the sentence.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 03 Nov 2009, 02:00
The ques given here has "WHICH" in option C (thats how it differs from manhattan's quesas posted by powerka) and as we know "which" cannot refer to a phrase so is wrong...

E is correct ans.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 20 May 2010, 21:39
This is a tough question. Great discussion!
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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This one nailed me today, I rarely get SC wrong. I will love if any of the Manhattan Instructors will pitch in and explain the OA to the maximum possible extent.

1. especially the use of "which"
2. I believe option C has SV disagreement since "cycle" is singular and should use "leads".

People,
please use your judgement not mine ! :wink:

Reopening the question.
An economic recession can result from a lowering of
employment rates triggered by a drop in investment, which
causes people to cut consumer spending and starts a cycle of
layoffs leading back to even lower employment rates
.
• a lowering of employment rates triggered by a drop in
investment, which causes people to cut consumer spending
and start a cycle of layoffs leading back to even lower
employment rates.
• a lowering of employment rates triggered by dropping
investment, which causes people to cut consumer spending
and starts a cycle of layoffs leading back to even lower
employment rates.
• falling employment rates triggered by a drop in investment,
which cause cutbacks in consumer spending, starting a
cycle of layoffs that lead to even lower employment rates.
• falling employment rates that are triggered by a drop in
investment, causing people to cut consumer spending and
starting a cycle of layoffs that lead back to even lower
employment rates.
• falling employment rates that are triggered by a drop in
investment, causing cutbacks in consumer spending and
starting a cycle of layoffs leading to even lower employment
rates.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 07:04
nusmavrik wrote:
This one nailed me today, I rarely get SC wrong. I will love if any of the Manhattan Instructors will pitch in and explain the OA to the maximum possible extent.

1. especially the use of "which"
2. I believe option C has SV disagreement since "cycle" is singular and should use "leads".

People,
please use your judgement not mine ! :wink:

Reopening the question.
An economic recession can result from a lowering of
employment rates triggered by a drop in investment, which
causes people to cut consumer spending and starts a cycle of
layoffs leading back to even lower employment rates
.
• a lowering of employment rates triggered by a drop in
investment, which causes people to cut consumer spending
and start a cycle of layoffs leading back to even lower
employment rates.
• a lowering of employment rates triggered by dropping
investment, which causes people to cut consumer spending
and starts a cycle of layoffs leading back to even lower
employment rates.
• falling employment rates triggered by a drop in investment,
which cause cutbacks in consumer spending, starting a
cycle of layoffs that lead to even lower employment rates.
• falling employment rates that are triggered by a drop in
investment, causing people to cut consumer spending and
starting a cycle of layoffs that lead back to even lower
employment rates.
• falling employment rates that are triggered by a drop in
investment, causing cutbacks in consumer spending and
starting a cycle of layoffs leading to even lower employment
rates.


In A & B & C, "which" is used wrongly. Also "causing people" not sounds good to me. "D" was ok, but "causing people to" disturbs me. Not sure about my theory, but in such tough problems, every one has a valid view. :)

So "E" for me.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 07:12
I b/w E & C.

(A) lowering of employment rates is wrong .unidiomatic. ELIMINATE

(B) lowering of employment rates is wrong .unidiomatic. ELIMINATE

(D) how can people cut consumer spending ? ELIMINATE

On test Day, I must have chosen E but some how I'm satisfied with my answer .....
Looks like something is tricky in C with usage of "Which".
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 07:16
onedayill wrote:
I b/w E & C.

(A) lowering of employment rates is wrong .unidiomatic. ELIMINATE

(B) lowering of employment rates is wrong .unidiomatic. ELIMINATE

(D) how can people cut consumer spending ? ELIMINATE

On test Day, I must have chosen E but some how I'm satisfied with my answer .....
Looks like something is tricky in C with usage of "Which".


So you mean its your 6th sense, which is causing you to think like this. :) Just kidding. Great thinking I believe. I am strongly supportive of slecting a choice which though not seems ok to you grammatically, but seems ok due to some unknown reason.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 08:49
I picked E.

Investments, itself, didn't cause people to cut spending... it's the full event of 'drop in emp rates caused by a decrease in investments..."
so an -ing modifier (i.e., a verb modifier) is needed here.

and E maintains the parallelism: causing X and starting Y where X and Y are constructed as "noun + prepositional phrase"
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 10:52
I would go for E ...
Reason .. II ism in three clauses ... So I narrowed to D and E ..
In D .... I did not like " causing ... to cut consumer spending ".....
So chose E...
hope this is correct
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 19:15
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OA is C

This is very interesting thing I learnt and I will like to share.

Lets say X is singular and Y plural. Imagine this pattern :
X of Y, which is
------> which points to the noun before the comma. So X or Y??? In such case let GMAT be your guide. I haven't seen a foe helping! :wink: But here it does

1. If the verb after which is singular -> which refers to X
2. If the verb after which is plural -> which refers to Y


This rule overrides any rule about "which" referring to X [Reason - Ohhh so you didn't see the preposition "of"]
E.g. the box of nails, which is on the counter ---> which refers to box. I'd always say which refers to box since gmat was consistent in writing statements like this. But the truth is that the verb after "which" is singular "is" and seems to refer to X.

When I saw this sentence today I ignored the hints about "which" - they were right there in the sentence !


3:2 split leaves A,B and C as contenders. And I guess people already killed A and B

Option C. "which" refers to "employment rates" because the verb "cause" is plural. So subject has to be plural.
cycle of layoffs that lead ----> that refers to "layoffs" since the verb "lead" is plural.


• falling employment rates triggered by a drop in investment,
which cause cutbacks in consumer spending, starting a
cycle of layoffs that lead to even lower employment rates.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 19:48
So why is E wrong?

Here is the OE :-D
(D) This choice contains the wordy phrase "causing people to cut
consumer spending" and the redundant phrase "lead back."
Moreover, the words "causing" and "starting" illogically refer back
to the economic recession. In fact, the falling employment rates,
not the economic recession, cause the cutbacks in consumer
spending and start the cycle of layoffs.
(E) The words "causing" and "starting" illogically refer back to the
economic recession. In fact, the falling employment rates, not the
economic recession, cause the cutbacks in consumer spending
and start the cycle of layoffs.
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 19:58
But whats the issue with E ?
Is it because of wordy?
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t [#permalink]

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New post 09 Jul 2010, 22:38
I chose C :)
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Re: An economic recession can result from a lowering of employment rates t   [#permalink] 09 Jul 2010, 22:38

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