Alright folks, step right up and read if you so please. This is long, and may not be pretty (my essays suck) but there might be something insightful in there.
justforthisone wrote:
Dear G'clubbers,
But over time, I've begun to realize how easy it is for us to be carried away with this whole "holier-than-thou" attitude and condemn everyone without thought. In particular, kidderek is very zealous about generalizing that every member knew what he was doing/should be acted on etc. That's when I began to think a little harder, putting myself in the newcomers shoes when I stumbled upon (literally) this site and registered myself. Did I read 1000 posts before registering? I've posted tons of replies to the math/verbal sections, did I check the source of every question? Did I know (and did you) for sure there was nothing fishy going on on this site?
You're right about the zealous tone and mob mentality. However, we are not acting "holier than thou." We are merely acting under normal ethical standards. We're not judging from a high horse, rather we are standing on ground level looking down at those who dug their own bschool graves.
justforthisone wrote:
Then I applied the same I-am-100%-pure rule to myself and others in this thread. By that account, the following should apply
1. Did you ever look at 1000SC/CR, regardless of whether you used it, saw it in a test, read its footnote, or knew its source? yes=>guilty
2. Were you 100% sure that every question asked in the quant/verbal sections were not from copyrighted GMAC material like
OG? no=>guilty
3. Did you ever read or respond to questions on Q/V sections with 100% confidence that the material was not suspect or live (could be cut-paste from elsewhere, but with your own argument - ignorance is not admissible by law) yes=>guilty
4. Did you ever participate in some other sites and were absolutely sure you never saw, participated or read questions that could be 'live'? yes=>guilty
If your answer to any of the questions has a "guilty" outcome, by the same rule, does that mean you would gladly have your score revoked and your life/reputation ruined? Keep in mind it doesn't matter
whether you knew they were clean or not. It is quite improbable that you participated in such a large forum as this one without ever thinking some questions/sources could be suspect. And by the same colored brush, can I call you (and myself) a cheat by association?
Wrong wrong wrong and wrong. I recently saw the 1000 series that I have. It's in word format and there is nothing but the questions and the answers. No company name, no disclaimer, nothing else.
Let me just preface this by saying that we ARE in agreement. We need to fry (cancel score + expulsion) those who knew (mens rea) and used (actus reus). You need a guilty mind and a guilty act. Those who DID NOT KNOW
could have their scores canceled. They, whether they knew or not, had a distinct advantage.
Also, there are two types of mistakes:
1) Mistake of law – in essence, ignorance of law is not a defense.
2) Mistake of fact – ignorance of a factual element of a case IS a defense. For example, someone sees an umbrella on the floor and thinks it was thrown away so he takes it for his own use. However, another person just left it there to dry. Mistake of fact = good defense.
Your examples are all mistake of fact scenarios.
So here we go
1)No, the 1000 series, in my estimation, did not contain "live" questions b/c it was so poorly written, contained obviously wrong answers, and may have actually been detrimental to the prep process. However, if it did contain "live" questions and you
KNEW IT, and used it, THEN you're guilty. If however, like most of us thought it to be some odd collection of questions, but were actually "live" questions, then GMAC could cancel our scores. Fine by me and no one else should object.
2)I've posted this seemingly a million times. GMAC needs to invoke "copyright" as a legal means to prosecute scoretop. They can't just walk in to court and cry scoretop tricked our testing system!!!
There is a distinction between using copyrighted "retired" questions and copyrighted "live" questions. Do NOT think they are one and the same.
3)You're right. But I never had any reason to think there were even "live" questions in existence. This falls under lack of "mens rea."
4)You're really reaching here.
justforthisone wrote:
Any student of statistics will know that in large "populations" the distribution is never a single point - it's quite stupid to think every scoretop user, VIP or not, was a cheat. Such a probability is just as likely as all gmatclubbers are 25 year old males whose birthday falls on 19th Feb. You will always have people who knew they were cheating, and those who had no idea and registered for variety of reasons. I can think of several unintentional cases
-registered thinking there were good practice questions
-the whole coaching thingy
-registered and did not use
-bulk registrations
-registrations for a friend (happens a lot due to CC/PP usage/restrictions in many countries)
-fraud (perhaps the smallest % but does happen)
It’s the entire scenario that seems fishy to me. When I’ve googled in the past for GMAT, GMAT prep/questions, to the best of my recollection, I’ve never seen scoretop. Sure, I’ve seen testmagic, gmax, beatthegmat etc. but not scoretop. Also, I believe the court papers talk about how scoretop kept switching their web address. Why would they need to? How would new members learn about it? Word of mouth perhaps?
It reminds me of an underground rave party where only people “in the know” attend.
justforthisone wrote:
There is then the willingness to give such vast powers to GMAC. There are many of us here who post a lot of responses and help others. GMAC is currently looking at 7 other sites, and let's say their attention turned to us. They then methodically pick the top 50 posters/responders and find out that each of them had either participated in a thread that included illegal questions, with our without their knowledge. And then they decide to track us down and revoke our score, and call all cheats. What do we say then? "I did not know?"
Again, not true. GMAC is treading very lightly right now because they know 2 things:
1) They neglected this for a long time
2) They will inevitably be sued.
Also, I think GMAC reserves the right to determine the correct course of action. Remember, GMAC doesn’t grant MBAs, they’re only in charge of the GMAT. If a bschool thinks that the GMAC is outside its boundaries of authority, I’m sure they will correct the situation.
justforthisone wrote:
Most of us join a bunch of sites, participate in them, buy bunch of online tests and exams and some of those do with illegal intentions and some others purely by chance. The whole point of a judiciary system is that when something happens, they find people who were actually guilty of crimes - and "association" and conjucture isn't good enough. I have aged parents and I work very hard and honest, I'm sure many of you do as well, would you want a taint because someone is on a zeal? When I checked the web archives, scoretop, like most other gmat sites, looks just the same. I shudder to think I could have been part of that site instead of this one. I bet there are thousands of users there cursing themselves as well.
Again, this statement is simply not true. Read the debriefs of the many test takers. They’re body of work is quite limited to the usual. Here’s a kicker:
Do a search for “scoretop” on this website. Prior to this thread, there are exactly 2.5 pages dating as far back as 3/15/05 returned for “scoretop.” It’s just not a very popular website. “Testmagic” has 8 pages.
I don’t think people participate enough on our forums. They browse, maybe sheepishly answer a few questions and move on. I remember how nervous I was when I posted for the very first time. I have plenty of friends whom I referred to gmatclub, who browse, but never post.
justforthisone wrote:
I'm all for going after guilty parties, but I am absolutely not for large scale witch-hunting that hurts innocent people. It is terrifying and tomorrow we could be in that list. I know it feels all nice to puff up and play pure. My basic point is that not everyone knows, and in the Internet age it's very easy to be fall prey to a variety of scams. As someone who has seen a lot of this from technology perspective, I know how easy it is. My argument is for the innocents, because there's nothing to be said about those that were guilty.
No witch hunt is necessary. Just go through the evidence with a fine comb and make a determination that is beyond a reasonable doubt.
justforthisone wrote:
The fix for problems like this has several aspects and I'm not getting into them - if I knew how to fix every complex problem I wouldn't be busting my guts to get into a B-school. But my thoughts?
The fix is quite simple. DO NOT repeat any questions. Offer the test 4 times a year w/fresh questions. And be wary of websites that post questions from previous tests (if not available to general public)
The fact of the matter is, yes there are innocent people. And there are guilty parties as well. But with the totality of the evidence, I just don't buy the story that someone stumbled upon a website and dropped $30 for some questions.
As a beginnner, why would you immediately spend money on an unknown website? What's wrong with Kraplan or PR, the seemingly American standards? How about the GMATPrep which is readily downloadable and included when you register?
As a veteran seeking more questions, you have to already know your surroudings based on recommendations from others. I exclusively studied w/
OG &
MGMAT as my test day was approaching.
Put that logic together with the systematic cheating in China and (surprise surprise) the Chinese CEO of scoretop in conjunction with the these snippets that rhyme keeps posting from bschool blogs, and it's just difficult for me to buy.
Finally, rhyme mentioned something about feeling sorry for those cheaters. And though, I’m not exactly 100% sympathetic, I do understand. Statute of limitations maybe?
So you mean some standardized test that purports to predict my success in bschool that has minimal impact on my acceptance will have me give up my MBA that I just dropped 2 years and $180K + forgone salary? For that, I blame GMAC for neglecting to maintain the legitimacy of the gmat brand.
Man, I’m tired.
close
02 Jul 2008, 18:00
