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As an actress, and more importantly as a teacher of acting

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New post 26 Mar 2015, 20:54
kimmyg wrote:
OA is C

I'm copying the OE from the book ...it's from the OG 11th Edition

The original sentence contains a number of modifiers, but not all of them are correctly expressed. The clause who trained describes Stella Adler, yet a relative clause such as this one must be placed immediately after the noun or pronoun it modifies, and this clause follows theatre rather than Adler. Replacing who trained with training corrects the error because the phrase training...modifies the whole preceding clause rather than the single preceding noun. Several generations of actors including shows the same error in reverse; including modifies the whole phrase, but the two actors named are not generations of actors. The more limiting whose ranks included (referring to actors) is appropriate here.


hi, all of you. I am a person failing on gmat for many years. and I do not stay here to say that something is bad. but I have to say that the explanation in og is wrong. this is vietnamese way of saying. in english, I should say, I do not think the explanation in og is right. which kind of saying is considered insulting depend on the culture you are in.

a similar sentence in og is " though it is called sea, lake on earth, covering..." . you pdf serch to find this question in og13. in this question, the explantion in og is also wrong. there is one smilar question in gmatprep, but I do not remember. we can find the similar question in gmatprep by using "find" fuction in pdf file of gmatprep question to find "which"

"which clause" touching the noun modified is prefered than "which clause"not touching. we choose touching "which clause" if the two choices are different only in placing, touching or not touching the noun modified. many tens questions in og and in The Economist and The newyorktime , contain "which clause" far from the noun modified. even e-gmat present an article of this pattern of modifier. you can find the article in this forum.

in short, we can not use touching rule of noun modifier to eliminate the wrong answer here. "which clause" conveys different meaning and "comma+doing convey different meaning. Ron in manhantan forum explained this problem in a similar question in gmatprep in the manhantan forum.

this question presents a situation, in which two grammatical choices are not illogic. we can not find grammatical error and logic error in both choices. similar question in gmatprep is "lighting in the home..."
which choice we choose.

I want the expert to jump into and help us.
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thangvietnam wrote:
hi, all of you. I am a person failing on gmat for many years. and I do not stay here to say that something is bad. but I have to say that the explanation in og is wrong. this is vietnamese way of saying. in english, I should say, I do not think the explanation in og is right. which kind of saying is considered insulting depend on the culture you are in.

a similar sentence in og is " though it is called sea, lake on earth, covering..." . you pdf serch to find this question in og13. in this question, the explantion in og is also wrong. there is one smilar question in gmatprep, but I do not remember. we can find the similar question in gmatprep by using "find" fuction in pdf file of gmatprep question to find "which"

"which clause" touching the noun modified is prefered than "which clause"not touching. we choose touching "which clause" if the two choices are different only in placing, touching or not touching the noun modified. many tens questions in og and in The Economist and The newyorktime , contain "which clause" far from the noun modified. even e-gmat present an article of this pattern of modifier. you can find the article in this forum.

in short, we can not use touching rule of noun modifier to eliminate the wrong answer here. "which clause" conveys different meaning and "comma+doing convey different meaning. Ron in manhantan forum explained this problem in a similar question in gmatprep in the manhantan forum.

this question presents a situation, in which two grammatical choices are not illogic. we can not find grammatical error and logic error in both choices. similar question in gmatprep is "lighting in the home..."
which choice we choose.

I want the expert to jump into and help us.

Dear thangvietnam,
My friend, I am happy to respond. :-)

First of all, keep in mind that the explanations in the OG are not ideal. The questions themselves have been rigorously tested over the course of decades and uniformly conform to the highest standards. By contrast, the explanations have not be tested, have not be vetted, have been subject to little or no feedback. They were NOT even written by the same people: questions in the OG were probably written 20 years ago, and explanations were probably written a couple years ago. Many of the explanations are OK, but some aren't. It's important to appreciate the tremendous difference in quality between the official questions and the official explanations.

Now, the issue of the Modifier Touch Rule is very tricky. The simple statement is that a noun modifier must touch the noun it modifiers. There are all sorts of exceptions to this rule. You can read a little about this here:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/modifiers- ... orrection/

I will introduce some terminology.
The noun-modifier that is the -ing form of a verb is called a participle.
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/participle ... -the-gmat/
Words such as "who," "which," "that," etc. are called relative pronouns, and they begin relative clauses.
Participles are particularly tricky, because they can be noun-modifies or they can modify a verb or an entire clause. Relative pronouns definitely cannot modify anything other than a noun. Also, even when both are acting as noun modifiers, the participles have a little more liberty. For example, if we have the structure
[subject][main verb][blah blah blah long phrase], [noun modifier] . . .
then if that noun modifier is a participle, this sound very natural, and it's grammatically & logically clear that it refers to the subject; but if the noun modifier in the same position is a relative clause, it sounds a bit awkward, especially if other nouns follow the main verb. If the [noun][verb] part is short and not followed by much, we can use a relative clause to modify the subject, but the longer the first phrase is, the more out of place the relative pronoun would sound.

Here's the question with choices (A) & (C).
As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.
(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including
(C) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, training several generations of actors whose ranks included

This is a very subtle point, and hard for non-native speakers to appreciate, but the structure in (C), [noun][verb][blah blah], "training," sounds so natural and clear, whereas something sounds a little off about (A).

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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New post 27 Mar 2015, 20:08
Thank you
there are many similar questions in og and gmatprep, one of them, "though called sea, covering...".

so, we need to find the clear reason to eliminate the choice A.

if we eliminate choice A without clear reason, we live on the luck.

business manager/leaders, who direct the big flow of money and human resourse do not live on luck.

thing over this question over and over again and come here again with better explanation to help us. dont walk away,

A is grammatical and contain no logic error. why A is wrong?

who can give us perfect explanation of this choice A will receive 3 usd from each of us, persons in the gmatprep forum. total amount could be 6000 usd. it is worth doing so
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thangvietnam wrote:
Thank you
there are many similar questions in og and gmatprep, one of them, "though called sea, covering...".

so, we need to find the clear reason to eliminate the choice A.

if we eliminate choice A without clear reason, we live on the luck.

business manager/leaders, who direct the big flow of money and human resourse do not live on luck.

thing over this question over and over again and come here again with better explanation to help us. dont walk away,

A is grammatical and contain no logic error. why A is wrong?

who can give us perfect explanation of this choice A will receive 3 usd from each of us, persons in the gmatprep forum. total amount could be 6000 usd. it is worth doing so

Dear thangvietnam
My friend, with all due respect, I explained this already. First of all, (A) is not out-and-out wrong, but it is awkward enough and suspect enough to be wrong on the GMAT SC. I explained why it is awkward compared to (B). You will find all this in my previous post.

There is a subtle logic to what the GMAT is testing on the SC question. For those who understand SC well, it absolutely is not luck. I believe the problem is: you are taking for granted that, right now, at your current level of understanding, you should be able to have full understanding of why (B) is right and why (A) is wrong. There is a certain presumption in that. When you take for granted that you already know enough, you deprive yourself of the opportunity to learn. All true learning happens in a mindset of open-minded curiosity and the humility to realize that one is not done learning and growing.

Also, when you ask an expert for a "perfect explanation," in some sense, you are denying your own responsibility. Education is not something the GMAT experts do to you. Education is something you do to yourself, by yourself, and for yourself, with our support. With math, it's relatively easy to write an explanation that everyone will get, because all the rules can be stated. In grammar, folks are at different levels of intuition, difference levels of comfort with their "ear" for English grammar; therefore, no explanation is going to work for everyone. There is a much greater onus of responsibility on the student to develop his own skills. With all due respect, your own English writing basically communicates what you want to communicate, but it perfectly clear that it was written by a non-native. From your writing alone, it is clear that you have a great deal to learn before you can achieve mastery in GMAT SC: first, you need to master fluency in speaking and writing.

My friend, it is 100% impossible to master GMAT SC by assembling some collection of clear definable rules. Grammar is not math. In math, we can explicitly state all the rules. In grammar, we can't: we can state some of them, but not all of them. That's simply the nature of grammar. If you have learned a lot of rules, that's an excellent start, but to advance significantly from where you are, you need to read. You need to read English for an hour a day, every day, over and above any specific GMAT preparation. See this blog article:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2014/how-to-imp ... bal-score/
I don't know whether you are still studying for the TOEFL, but Magoosh has a TOEFL product that can help you. Here's the TOEFL blog:
http://magoosh.com/toefl/
and here's the intro to the product:
https://toefl.magoosh.com/subscribe/bas ... =FreeTrial
Once again, no combination of expert explanations can get you from where you are now to GMAT SC mastery. You have significant work you need to do. I will do whatever I can to support you in this process, but you need to take the responsibility for your own mastery of English.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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thangvietnam wrote:
so, we need to find the clear reason to eliminate the choice A.

Hi thangvietnam, with A, the sentence is:

As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.

What is who intended to modify? Well, clearly the intention is that who modifies Stella Adler.

Now notice that who cannot modify American theater, because as a relative pronoun, who cannot modify non-living things. However, there is another valid antecedent that who can modify: influential artists. In fact, influential artists is actually closer to who than is Stella Adler.

So, at the very least, there is a clear ambiguity in option A as to what who is modifying: influential artists or Stella Adler.

For the most part, ambiguity is a clear reason on GMAT, to eliminate an answer choice.

As Mike pointed out earlier, OG explanations do leave a lot to be desired.
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I think most of us would say that A is out-and-out wrong. Mike, that's what you seem to say, too, on the previous page. Although there are exceptions to the touch rule, we can't have a noun modifier crossing over both the verb and subsequent modifiers to refer back to the main subject. Thangvietnam, I don't think you will find a single example of this.

As for C, "training" begins an adverbial modifier that correctly modifies the preceding clause ("Stella was . . . artists").

There's another flaw in A--the actors were not "including" Brando and DeNiro. Those two were included in the group of actors, but not in the actors themselves! (Brando was a pretty big guy--if he were hiding inside another actor, we'd be able to tell!) That's why we have the added word "ranks" in C or E, which are therefore the only viable options. Without "ranks," we are saying either that Brando & DeNiro are inside the other actors or (somewhat less absurdly) that the other actors are including B & D, as in a playground activity. Neither of these seems to be the intended meaning!
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New post 31 Mar 2015, 00:09
DmitryFarber wrote:
There's another flaw in A--the actors were not "including" Brando and DeNiro. Those two were included in the group of actors, but not in the actors themselves! (Brando was a pretty big guy--if he were hiding inside another actor, we'd be able to tell!)

Hello DmitryFarber, I thought "including" here is used in the sense of "such as". Is this not the case or is this not allowed?

Because I came across the usage of "including" in sentence below:

Bluegross musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical collaboration, and vocal style influenced generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from his own.

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You're right, we could use "including" that way. (And by the way, that Bill Monroe problem is a really good one!) However, we'd need to use a comma first, as the GMAT does in "Bill Monroe." When you put an -ing word directly after a noun (with no comma), it modifies the noun itself. With a comma, it can modify the preceding clause. (In this case, "Bill inspired musicians.")

I know. English is crazy. Next try learning Russian . . . :shock:
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New post 31 Mar 2015, 00:40
DmitryFarber wrote:
You're right, we could use "including" that way. (And by the way, that Bill Monroe problem is a really good one!) However, we'd need to use a comma first, as the GMAT does in "Bill Monroe." When you put an -ing word directly after a noun (with no comma), it modifies the noun itself. With a comma, it can modify the preceding clause. (In this case, "Bill inspired musicians.")

I know. English is crazy. Next try learning Russian . . . :shock:

Hello DmitryFarber, actually as per Ron's comment, on the link below, "including" is an exception. Further, he says that in "comma + including", "including X" will become a prepositional phrase that describes the stuff preceding the comma:

https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/forums/the-32-species-that-make-up-the-dolphin-family-t6878.html

Now, in view of your post and Ron's, I am beginning to wonder what Ron means by "stuff":(.

Yes, I am indeed a non-native, but after a lot of effort, am beginning to gain quite a comfort level in Sentence Correction. However, sentences and exceptions such as these, slightly throw me off.

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You know, Ron may have a point there. (He usually does! :) ) There are cases where ",including" doesn't modify the preceding clause, but rather serves to clarify the preceding noun. I use the word "clarify" rather than the more general "modify" because it is *still* different from "actors including." In these cases ", including X" functions as an aside to make it clear that a particular element is included in the group mentioned. Here's are two examples from recent NYT articles:

"China has jailed two men for selling military secrets, including hundreds of photos of the country's lone aircraft carrier, to foreign spies, state media reported on Friday, without saying which countries were buying them."

(That's a bit more tangled a sentence than you'd see on the GMAT, but the use of ", including" is pretty straightforward.)

"Thai authorities said on Monday they had found a group of 76 migrants from neighboring Myanmar, including six suspected Rohingya, in a sign that one of Asia's busiest smuggling routes is still thriving despite Bangkok's vow to stamp out trafficking."

(This is a bit more interesting. Notice that in this case, "including" skips over the preceding modifier ("from neighboring Myanmar") to modify "migrants." Also, on the GMAT we'd probably want a "that" between "Monday" and "they.")
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New post 17 Aug 2015, 01:44
kimmyg wrote:
OA is C

I'm copying the OE from the book ...it's from the OG 11th Edition

The original sentence contains a number of modifiers, but not all of them are correctly expressed. The clause who trained describes Stella Adler, yet a relative clause such as this one must be placed immediately after the noun or pronoun it modifies, and this clause follows theatre rather than Adler. Replacing who trained with training corrects the error because the phrase training...modifies the whole preceding clause rather than the single preceding noun. Several generations of actors including shows the same error in reverse; including modifies the whole phrase, but the two actors named are not generations of actors. The more limiting whose ranks included (referring to actors) is appropriate here.


there are a few similar og questions in which the split "who is" and "comma+doing" is tested.
in A, who can logically and grammaticaly refers to " artists".

the problem here is that in C, the meaning relations between entities are close. Ron used to explain this point

similar questions in og is
"the largest lake on earth, covering "

so og explanation of this point is not good, or I am confused
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New post 07 Jun 2016, 20:59
Use of including

As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.

(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained
several generations of actors including
(B) Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several
generations of actors who include
(C) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, training several
generations of actors whose ranks included
(D) one of the most influential artists in the American theater was Stella Adler, who trained
several generations of actors including
(E) one of the most influential artists in the American theater, Stella Adler, trained several
generations of actors whose ranks included

Last edited by gmattaker10 on 07 Jun 2016, 21:27, edited 1 time in total.

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New post 07 Jun 2016, 21:27
A.->"who" is modifies the preceding noun entity "the American theater".
-> Here including modifies the entire phrase i.e.
Several generations of actors modifies Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro

B.It converts the main information as additional information
(Note:Main information: Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater)

C. Correct Answer
Verb-ing training is correctly used to present the how of the previous clause

D.Use of including is wrong

E.It converts the main information as additional information



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kimmyg wrote:
As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.

(A) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, who trained several generations of actors including
(B) Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several generations of actors who include
(C) Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, training several generations of actors whose ranks included
(D) one of the most influential artists in the American theater was Stella Adler, who trained several generations of actors including
(E) one of the most influential artists in the American theater, Stella Adler, trained several generations of actors whose ranks included

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if my folowing explanation is correct, the og explaanation is not good.

in A, who trained... refers to "artists" grammatically. this is not logic because this means many artise traine Marlon and Robert.
this is the only reason but terrible one for which a is wrong.
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New post 08 Jun 2016, 10:50
Noun modifiers such as "who" and "which" typically modify the immediately preceding noun. So technically, the sentence is saying that the American theater trained several generations of actors!

A is also wrong for "actors including," as discussed above.
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New post 05 Jun 2017, 17:31
Need suggestion: In case we tweak b option a bit then will it be correct?

Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several generations of actors who include
including

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New post 06 Jun 2017, 09:45
KanakGarg wrote:
Need suggestion: In case we tweak b option a bit then will it be correct?

Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several generations of actors who include
including

Dear KanakGarg,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

This is subtle. In the original question, (B) has many problems at many levels. One of these problems is the verb "includes" at the end. Your edit addresses this one issue, but none of the other issues. BTW, we would need a comma before the "including" phrase. Look at the whole sentence with your version of (B)

As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler, one of the most influential artists in the American theater, trained several generations of actors, including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.

Here we are on tricky ground. Is the sentence grammatically correct? Yes. Is this a well-written sentence? Hmm. There's something awkward about having the subject "hemmed" in by noun modifiers--we get [long noun modifier #1][subject][long noun modifier #2] before we ever get to a verb. There's something subtle that's "off" about this. It's not black-and-white wrong: maybe it could suffice as a correct answer on the GMAT SC, because sometimes the correct answer is less than ideal. This is definitely less than ideal.

Compare this to (C)
As an actress and, more importantly, as a teacher of acting, Stella Adler was one of the most influential artists in the American theater, training several generations of actors whose ranks included Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.
Wow! Sleek, elegant, direct. This design is essentially [long noun modifier][noun][verb][predicate][long verb modifier]. There is something elegant about this: the core of the sentence, the subject + verb, are right next to each other at the heart of the sentence, not five miles apart, as they are in (B). Choice (C) is a eminently satisfying and well-written sentence. Choice (B) is tepid by comparison.

My friend, I don't know whether English is your first language, but I recognize that these points are hard for non-native speakers to appreciate. Remember, the GMAT SC is not simply a test a grammar. The GMAT tests three strands: grammar, logic, and rhetoric--as well as their interaction. In particular, on harder SC questions, many incorrect answers are 100% grammatically correct but clearly wrong for other reasons; these answers are traps for students who pay attention only to grammar.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Magoosh Test Prep

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Re: As an actress, and more importantly as a teacher of acting [#permalink]

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New post 06 Jun 2017, 11:08
IMO B
Modifier one of the most influential artists into the American theater is correctly placed

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GPA: 3.4
WE: Manufacturing and Production (Manufacturing)
Re: As an actress, and more importantly as a teacher of acting [#permalink]

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New post 06 Jun 2017, 11:08
IMO B
Modifier one of the most influential artists into the American theater is correctly placed

Sent from my ONE E1003 using GMAT Club Forum mobile app
_________________

We are more often frightened than hurt; and we suffer more from imagination than from reality

Kudos [?]: 55 [0], given: 502

Re: As an actress, and more importantly as a teacher of acting   [#permalink] 06 Jun 2017, 11:08

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