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At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution

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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most [#permalink]

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New post 26 Mar 2017, 20:28
AR15J wrote:
sayantanc2k wrote:
AR15J wrote:
Hi expert,

Why choice A is preferred over choice B?


B has a parallelism issue: an appositive modifier ("a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians") is made parallel to a past participle modifier ("respected by the Spaniards").



a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards


Can we not interpret it as--


a form of ownership
modifier --of the pre-Columbians
and
modifier-- respected by the Spaniards



More than the grammar part associated with option B, I rejected it because of meaning error.

Original Sentence: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.

As per the meaning analysis, underlined part describes communal ownership further as a pre-Coulmbian form of ownership and this (the later) was respected by Spaniards.

Choice B: land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards

In choice B - respected by the Spaniards appears to modify communal ownership instead of pre-Coulmbian form of ownership

In addition, I feel there is a difference in meaning -
1. a pre-Columbian form of ownership
2. a form of ownership of the pre-Columbian

sayantanc2k, please correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 29 Apr 2017, 17:49
Merged topics. Please, search before posting questions!
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 19 Jun 2017, 03:06
Quote:
proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.


Is the structure prposed a return to X, to Y respected by the Spaniards correct? I think second 'to' is unnecessary.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 01 Oct 2017, 22:41
seekmba wrote:
It took me a very long time to understand the sentence...

I will try explaining the reason between A and E.

If we break the sentence in parts....

At the time of the ........, the most radical faction,...., proposed a return to communal ownership of....., to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by Spaniards

In E, the sentence reads

At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction,...., proposed a return to communal ownership of land, that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards. ==> In this sentence the word "that" seems to be modifying "land" which is not the intent of the sentence.

The sentence says....

The proposal is to return to communal ownership to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership

153. At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.

(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards - awkward
(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership - awkward
(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards
(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards



Nicely explained,
Idiom used in Propose X to Y

Thanks +1
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 29 Nov 2017, 14:20
RonPurewal kindly explain all the choices.
Also in E , some people are writing that modifies land, however i saw someone's post in which it was written "in fact "THAT" is a beautiful word and it has a capacity to refer to FAR FLUNG nouns (this has been told by RON many times) .in fact if you are eliminating E for that reason then u might land up eliminating many good choices in official questions ." Its Aditya's post by the way.

Kindly explain all choices , and what is 'THAT" modifying ?? in E.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 29 Nov 2017, 16:14
I agree with explanations from experts in this thread. A is the best answer even though the way A is written is not usual in gmat.

I am stuck with A and E. At this point, test takers must know an important pattern in E that in SC, "that" normally modifies the word next to it (Kaplan); this is why E is incorrect.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 30 Nov 2017, 00:54
chesstitans wrote:
I agree with explanations from experts in this thread. A is the best answer even though the way A is written is not usual in gmat.

I am stuck with A and E. At this point, test takers must know an important pattern in E that in SC, "that" normally modifies the word next to it (Kaplan); this is why E is incorrect.



but that can modify far away words..too , explained by Ron -> Its not necessary always true that "that" modifies only the nearest word before "that".
As u have seen my post above -> some people wrote - that modifies land.. one of them i guess Aaditya wrote something different from everyone.. everyone rejects E only by saying that modifies land.. so to be sure i tagged Ron to know correct concept applied in rejecting E.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 30 Nov 2017, 01:06
sahilvijay wrote:
chesstitans wrote:
I agree with explanations from experts in this thread. A is the best answer even though the way A is written is not usual in gmat.

I am stuck with A and E. At this point, test takers must know an important pattern in E that in SC, "that" normally modifies the word next to it (Kaplan); this is why E is incorrect.



but that can modify far away words..too , explained by Ron -> Its not necessary always true that "that" modifies only the nearest word before "that".
As u have seen my post above -> some people wrote - that modifies land.. one of them i guess Aaditya wrote something different from everyone.. everyone rejects E only by saying that modifies land.. so to be sure i tagged Ron to know correct concept applied in rejecting E.


yup, i understand what you say, and there are many similar gmat questions relating to the same sutation.
Surely, "that" in E is quite ambiguous; "that" can refer to either "land" or "ownership". On the other hand, In A, "to what" is unambiguous.
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At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 06 Jan 2018, 09:43
sahilvijay wrote:
RonPurewal kindly explain all the choices.
Also in E , some people are writing that modifies land, however i saw someone's post in which it was written "in fact "THAT" is a beautiful word and it has a capacity to refer to FAR FLUNG nouns (this has been told by RON many times) .in fact if you are eliminating E for that reason then u might land up eliminating many good choices in official questions ." Its Aditya's post by the way.

Kindly explain all choices , and what is 'THAT" modifying ?? in E.


sahilvijay

Dear friend ,you have raised a very interesting issue here and here are my two cents.But before that I would like to inform you that Ron doesn't post answers on the questions written by other prep companies.And now a days he only writes in official manhattan forum.So tagging the great ron will not help much I guess.

Now coming back to the simplified version of your question is that if we have "Noun1 + preposition + Noun2 + that modifier," can the modifier modify the first noun? Or is it that it always modifies the second noun?
A relative pronoun (like "that" and "which") can be used to modify the noun immediately before it, but it can also be used to modify a noun further away if the pronoun and the noun being described are separated by a prepositional phrase. To figure out which one is being modified, we have to understand the rest of the sentence.
You see in option E, that modifies only land or only communal ownership does not make sense So even if E is grammatically correct, it does not convey the intended meaning as does A.
I'm very happy to post an official question(Diagnostic test OG 13 Problem 50. ) and the analysis by Manhattan forum moderator.

https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... 21976.html
Any correction of my post or any information by the original author will be great.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 21 Feb 2018, 14:33
goalsnr wrote:
Original SC:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.

Let us simplify it :
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, proposed a return to X, to what had been Y.

Meaning:
The radical faction proposed to replace Y with X.
Type of ownership during the Agarian revolution - Y
What type of ownership did the radical faction want ? - X
They wanted to move to X by replacing Y with X.


This is actually a modifier and IIlism type SC.

Modifier because "to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards" modifies "communal ownership of land"

IIlism because -
return to X, to what had been Y.

At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.
A. land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
>>>Correct

B. land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards
>>> Changes the meaning of the SC. It means the radical faction wants to move to "communal ownership of land" which was respected by spaniards. Wrong
Another flaw - Pre-columbians used "communal ownership of land". This is out of scope. The scope of the SC is limited to the radical faction vs Spaniards and Communcal ownership vs pre-Columbian form of ownership

C. land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership
>>>Changes the meaning of the SC. It means the spaniards respected "communal ownership of land" . Wrong

D. land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards
>>> Changes the meaning of the SC.
It looks like the SC is trying to say " pre-Columbian form of ownership" is a subset of "Communal ownership"

E. land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards

>>> Changes the meaning of the SC.
It looks like the SC is trying to say "Communal ownership" was " pre-Columbian form of ownership"


thanks for the explaining, had a hard time understanding this sentence, your simplified sentence really helped.
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At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 09 May 2018, 11:20
techiesam wrote:
sahilvijay wrote:
RonPurewal kindly explain all the choices.
Also in E , some people are writing that modifies land, however i saw someone's post in which it was written "in fact "THAT" is a beautiful word and it has a capacity to refer to FAR FLUNG nouns (this has been told by RON many times) .in fact if you are eliminating E for that reason then u might land up eliminating many good choices in official questions ." Its Aditya's post by the way.

Kindly explain all choices , and what is 'THAT" modifying ?? in E.


sahilvijay

Dear friend ,you have raised a very interesting issue here and here are my two cents.But before that I would like to inform you that Ron doesn't post answers on the questions written by other prep companies.And now a days he only writes in official manhattan forum.So tagging the great ron will not help much I guess.

Now coming back to the simplified version of your question is that if we have "Noun1 + preposition + Noun2 + that modifier," can the modifier modify the first noun? Or is it that it always modifies the second noun?
A relative pronoun (like "that" and "which") can be used to modify the noun immediately before it, but it can also be used to modify a noun further away if the pronoun and the noun being described are separated by a prepositional phrase. To figure out which one is being modified, we have to understand the rest of the sentence.
You see in option E, that modifies only land or only communal ownership does not make sense So even if E is grammatically correct, it does not convey the intended meaning as does A.
I'm very happy to post an official question(Diagnostic test OG 13 Problem 50. ) and the analysis by Manhattan forum moderator.

https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... 21976.html
Any correction of my post or any information by the original author will be great.


Bumping in for further discussion. In this official question, "that" is modifying neutrinos defying the touch rule:

As a result of a supernova explosion, every human being on Earth was bombarded on February 23, 1987, by about 100 billion neutrinos; fortunately, neutrinos are harmless elementary particles that are produced in nuclear reactions and that interact very weakly with matter.

(A) neutrinos are harmless elementary particles that are produced in nuclear reactions and that

(B) neutrinos, which are harmless, are elementary particles produced in nuclear reactions and which

(C) neutrinos are harmless elementary particles produced in nuclear reactions and which

(D) these harmless elementary particles are produced in nuclear reactions, and neutrinos

(E) these elementary particles, harmless products of nuclear reactions, are neutrinos that


The usage of "that" is getting extremely confusing. Can "that" refer to the noun it touches or can it go back to the noun in prepositional phrase? Is the "touch rule" an absolute one? Because if it is not, then it cannot be used for elimination of the answer choice E in the discussed question. Can anyone please help?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 11 May 2018, 07:16
Hi GMATNinja could we get some analysis from your side as well?
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 11 May 2018, 14:32
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urvashis09 wrote:

Bumping in for further discussion. In this official question, "that" is modifying neutrinos defying the touch rule:

As a result of a supernova explosion, every human being on Earth was bombarded on February 23, 1987, by about 100 billion neutrinos; fortunately, neutrinos are harmless elementary particles that are produced in nuclear reactions and that interact very weakly with matter.

(A) neutrinos are harmless elementary particles that are produced in nuclear reactions and that

(B) neutrinos, which are harmless, are elementary particles produced in nuclear reactions and which

(C) neutrinos are harmless elementary particles produced in nuclear reactions and which

(D) these harmless elementary particles are produced in nuclear reactions, and neutrinos

(E) these elementary particles, harmless products of nuclear reactions, are neutrinos that


The usage of "that" is getting extremely confusing. Can "that" refer to the noun it touches or can it go back to the noun in prepositional phrase? Is the "touch rule" an absolute one? Because if it is not, then it cannot be used for elimination of the answer choice E in the discussed question. Can anyone please help?

Thanks in advance!

A full discussion of the supernova question can be found here: https://gmatclub.com/forum/qotd-as-a-re ... l#p1899686

Bakshi, I'm not sure whether you were asking about the supernova question in urvashis09 's post, or the original question at the beginning of this thread. But I'll just say that the original question in this thread isn't from an official source, and I'd recommend spending your energy on official questions wherever possible -- especially when it comes to something as nuanced as the so-called "touch rule" (also addressed in this video and this post). Hopefully those links will answer your questions!
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At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution [#permalink]

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New post 11 May 2018, 22:40
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GMATNinja wrote:
urvashis09 wrote:

Bumping in for further discussion. In this official question, "that" is modifying neutrinos defying the touch rule:

As a result of a supernova explosion, every human being on Earth was bombarded on February 23, 1987, by about 100 billion neutrinos; fortunately, neutrinos are harmless elementary particles that are produced in nuclear reactions and that interact very weakly with matter.

(A) neutrinos are harmless elementary particles that are produced in nuclear reactions and that

(B) neutrinos, which are harmless, are elementary particles produced in nuclear reactions and which

(C) neutrinos are harmless elementary particles produced in nuclear reactions and which

(D) these harmless elementary particles are produced in nuclear reactions, and neutrinos

(E) these elementary particles, harmless products of nuclear reactions, are neutrinos that


The usage of "that" is getting extremely confusing. Can "that" refer to the noun it touches or can it go back to the noun in prepositional phrase? Is the "touch rule" an absolute one? Because if it is not, then it cannot be used for elimination of the answer choice E in the discussed question. Can anyone please help?

Thanks in advance!

A full discussion of the supernova question can be found here: https://gmatclub.com/forum/qotd-as-a-re ... l#p1899686

Bakshi, I'm not sure whether you were asking about the supernova question in urvashis09 's post, or the original question at the beginning of this thread. But I'll just say that the original question in this thread isn't from an official source, and I'd recommend spending your energy on official questions wherever possible -- especially when it comes to something as nuanced as the so-called "touch rule" (also addressed in this video and this post). Hopefully those links will answer your questions!


Thank you, the discussion of the official question now makes sense. I guess one shouldn't give much attention to unofficial questions in the learning phase.
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