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At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti

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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   25 May 2019, 03:15
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vishalsuri wrote:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.


(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards

(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards

(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership

(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards

(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards


this is very hard.
look at choice A and E.
that clause or similar clause such as "in which" clause of choice D, is used to define a noun. whenever we see this kind of clause, think that there are more than 1 kind of noun, for simplicity, think that there are 2 kinds of noun and one kind of noun is the kind which is defined by "that clause".

so, choice E means there are 2 (in fact more than 1) kinds of ownership, and they return to the kind that had been pre columbian form. this is not logic.

the intended meaning is there is only 1 kind of ownership. in history, there can not be 2 kinds of this ownership. choice E implies that there are many kinds of ownership. this meaning is absurd. choice E is gone.

choice D is wrong for the same reason as choice E is wrong.

touch rule declares that which/that clause should touch to noun modified. but this rule permit us to find the inferiors choice relative to a better choice. this rule is not hard and fast rule by the fact that many OA on og books contain which/that clause which do not touch the noun modifies.

gmat sc is hard because it requires us to be actively to find an error. only when we know this way, we can write. what is "active to find " error.

many times, we understand explanation but can not solve a new problem because we are not active. to be active to find error means we have to have skill.

one skill for problem regarding "that clause" is that

takeaway: whenever we see that clause, we think that there are 2 (more than 1) of the noun, and the sentence says about one kind of the noun which is defined by "that clause"

whenever we see "which" clause, think about cutting off this "which clause". if the remaining sentence after cutting off is good, which clause is correct.

above is example of "active to find error".
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   16 May 2020, 12:00
@daagh/ Experts,

Can any one of you help me understand the usage of ",to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards". I am confused by this sentence structure. What is the role of "to what"? I have come across this construction and hence unable to understand the meaning and structure.

Thanks,
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   16 May 2020, 21:42
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Parikshit
The pre-Columbian” era refers to the period in the Americas before the arrival of Columbus in 1492.
Contrary to belief, the Pre Columbian era included various social marvels in the form of architecture, astronomy, and writing systems. The Spanish people who colonized these countries were surprised at the diversity and depth of these cultures. The land ownership pattern that existed in these American countries is one such marvel, which the European invaders respected greatly.
During the agro- evolution, the Zapata group wanted to return to this old system of land ownership as part of the reforms from the then Spanish form of ownership, which had been thrust by the colonizers by brutal military force.
‘To what had been’ refers to the native system that existed in those countries before the Europeans’ colonized them.

I hope the milieu is clear now.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   10 Aug 2021, 19:14
Quote:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.
(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards
(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership
(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards
(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards


AndrewN VeritasKarishma

Totally stumped after seeing the answer choice. I marked B as answer.

My thoughts on option B:-land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards
a form of ownership.............. is a noun+noun phrase construct that is giving me extra information on communal ownership.

But about A, I rejected A on the basis of the awkward 'to' just after comma.

Please help !!
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   10 Aug 2021, 21:53
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warrior1991 wrote:
Quote:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.
(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards
(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership
(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards
(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards


AndrewN VeritasKarishma

Totally stumped after seeing the answer choice. I marked B as answer.

My thoughts on option B:-land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards
a form of ownership.............. is a noun+noun phrase construct that is giving me extra information on communal ownership.

But about A, I rejected A on the basis of the awkward 'to' just after comma.

Please help !!


It is a bad question. I don't think it is an official question even though it has been tagged as such. If someone has a screenshot of this question from some official resource, please share.

My problem starts with the use of "had been" for "a pre-Columbian form of ownership".
"a pre-Columbian form of ownership" means "this form of ownership was popular in pre-Columbian era".

So "communal ownership of land" is still a "pre-Columbian form of ownership".
I don't have to say that "communal ownership of land" HAD BEEN a "pre-Columbian form of ownership".

If I am talking from the perspective of a point in the past (at the time of Mexican revolution), then I can say, "it was a pre-Columbian form of ownership".
I can use past perfect for state only if the state got over at the point in the simple past.

(B) has a big problem "a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians".
The ownership was of land, not of pre-Columbians.

In (C), the appositive needs to be right next to what it is renaming and then we can have a modifier without "and".
For example,
... communal ownership of land, a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards ...
would be fine.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   11 Aug 2021, 13:57
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warrior1991 wrote:
Quote:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.
(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards
(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards
(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership
(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards
(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards


AndrewN VeritasKarishma

Totally stumped after seeing the answer choice. I marked B as answer.

My thoughts on option B:-land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards
a form of ownership.............. is a noun+noun phrase construct that is giving me extra information on communal ownership.

But about A, I rejected A on the basis of the awkward 'to' just after comma.

Please help !!

Hello, warrior1991. If both VeritasKarishma and GMATNinja (in an earlier post) recommend looking elsewhere for high-quality questions, then who am I to disagree? I would merely like to add that your reservation about an infinitive after a comma, an infinitive phrase in parallel with an earlier usage, is understandable, but the grammatical construct is perfectly acceptable. We are accustomed to seeing a conjunction—and, most commonly—between parallel elements, but there is no problem with a sentence taking a slightly different grammatical path. Take the following sentence, for instance:

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., urged his followers to demonstrate peacefully, to host sit-ins as a form of nonviolent protest against any perceived injustices.

The infinitive phrases answer the question, What did Dr. King urge [his followers to do]? The part about sit-ins can act as an extension or definition of the first phrase. Neither are phrases unique in their ability to stack in such a manner. It is not uncommon to see such usage with clauses either: He said that he disliked blue, that he liked red instead (answering the question, What did he say?).

Although these nuances of grammar may not pop up on SC questions, you never know when GMAC™ may decide to test a concept in a less familiar way. In the end, you have to be open to learning something you may not have thought possible, at least when it comes to grammar.

- Andrew
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   17 Aug 2021, 14:10
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Himanshuv0 wrote:
Hello AndrewN

I understand the intended meaning now and the structure too.

But I am not able to differentiate its meaning from the meaning of Option E.

…… a return to [X], to [Y]

Here Y describing X

In option E, “that”is also describing X as well.

Please clarify

Posted from my mobile device

Hello, Himanshuv0. I think we are giving this question too much airtime, to be honest. I will say that (E) is confusing in its presentation. I am not saying that that absolutely cannot modify a noun that falls before the nearest preceding noun, but it can be jarring to see land that had been... when the information that follows is not about the land. That is, the relative clause construct allows us to anticipate certain information, and when the sentence switches back, we can find that experience unsatisfying. The parallel to phrases more effectively convey the meaning of this particular sentence (i.e. without the reader having to backtrack to make sense of everything). If I had to choose between two otherwise equal sentences, one of which flowed unidirectionally and the other back and forth, I would choose the former every time as the one that was easier to follow.

Thank you for following up. Good luck with your studies.

- Andrew
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   27 Nov 2021, 00:43
Hello

Can anyone tell me how the phrase within the punctuations works " ,proposed a return to communal ownership of land, "

I thought that anything between two commas is non essential , thus I ruled out options A, B & C basis this logic and arrived at E (as in E 'that' can modify the preposition phrase ''communal ownership of land'

Please assist.
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   27 Nov 2021, 12:58
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VIGHNESHKAMATH wrote:
Hello

Can anyone tell me how the phrase within the punctuations works " ,proposed a return to communal ownership of land, "

I thought that anything between two commas is non essential , thus I ruled out options A, B & C basis this logic and arrived at E (as in E 'that' can modify the preposition phrase ''communal ownership of land'

Please assist.

Hello, VIGHNESHKAMATH. You seem to have the right idea here but the wrong application. If you ask yourself what forms the main clause—subject and predicate—you will find that within the original sentence, it is actually that of Zapata and his followers that is non-essential, interrupting the main clause the most radical faction proposed a return to communal ownership of land. The sentence opens with a phrase, followed by the main clause, a phrase interrupter, and an alternative continuation of a return at the end.

Quote:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.

Although the integrity of the question has been placed under doubt by several Experts above, the fundamental skill of subject-verb identification can prove useful for any SC question, legitimate or otherwise.

Good luck with your studies.

- Andrew
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   02 May 2022, 07:28
I came across this question and was stumped between A and C. I went with C purely because A had the weird structure: a return to x, to y - I thought this was wrong and because C was grammatically correct, I thought it didn’t change the meaning drastically and went with it. Can someone explain why the structure in this sentence is ok ?
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   19 May 2022, 05:10
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rikinmathur wrote:
I came across this question and was stumped between A and C. I went with C purely because A had the weird structure: a return to x, to y - I thought this was wrong and because C was grammatically correct, I thought it didn’t change the meaning drastically and went with it. Can someone explain why the structure in this sentence is ok ?

Here's a simplified version of (A):

    "The most radical faction proposed a return to [X], to [Y]."

The repetition of the "to" lets the reader know that [X] and [Y] are referring to the same thing: "communal ownership of land" is "what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards."

Here's another example that uses a similar modifier:

    "Tim dreamed of a better future, of a world in which smart phones have four different camera lenses, not just three."

The repetition of the "of" indicates that the parts in bold refer to the same thing -- the thing that Tim dreamed of. (<-- Look, Ma, another example!)

Modifiers like these aren't that unusual on the GMAT. Here are a few others:


They might seem awkward, but the repeated words actually improve the clarity of these sentences because they force you to read and interpret the sentences in a very specific way. In other words, those repeated words help create sentences that are NOT open to interpretation, and that's generally a good thing on the GMAT.

I hope that helps!
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At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   02 Jul 2022, 17:09
Could anyone please help me understand the function of ''that'' in ''the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers''
Does this ''that'' function the same with the ''that'' in comparison sentences and refer to faction? if so, why it is not ''the most radical faction of Zapata and his followers''?
Why bother writing in this way?
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   04 Jul 2022, 05:22
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louisinau wrote:
Could anyone please help me understand the function of ''that'' in ''the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers''
Does this ''that'' function the same with the ''that'' in comparison sentences and refer to faction? if so, why it is not ''the most radical faction of Zapata and his followers''?
Why bother writing in this way?


Hello louisinau,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, here "that" refers to the noun "the faction"; the pronoun phrase "that of Zapata and his followers'' is an appositive that modifies "the most radical faction" to convey that the most radical faction was the faction of Zapata and his followers.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   24 Feb 2023, 22:47
vishalsuri wrote:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.


(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards

(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards

(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership

(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards

(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards


Hi Experts GMATNinja KarishmaB egmat GMATGuruNY

I wanted to know if the "touch" rule as it is said is said, only refers to "land" in case of (E) and not the whole thing "communal ownership of land" ??

Please let me know your thoughts. As per me, it clearly conveys the meaning.

Thanks!
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   28 Feb 2023, 04:09
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GMATking94 wrote:
I wanted to know if the "touch" rule as it is said is said, only refers to "land" in case of (E) and not the whole thing "communal ownership of land" ??

Please let me know your thoughts. As per me, it clearly conveys the meaning.

Thanks!


a return to prosperity
a return to peace
a return to communal ownership

The terms in blue all refer to GENERAL CONCEPTS.
It is extremely rare for this type of term to be modified by a that-modifier.
The reason:
Whereas each of these terms refers to something GENERAL, a that-modifier typically refers to something SPECIFIC.

E: a return to communal ownership of land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership
Here -- since the term in blue is typically not modified by a that-modifier -- the portion in red seems to refer to land, conveying that the LAND had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership.
The result is a nonsensical meaning.

SC106 in the OG12:
Marconi conceived of the radio as a tool for private conversation that could substitute for the telephone.
Here, the term in blue refers to a general concept and thus is not typically modified by a that-modifier.
As a result, it is crystal clear that the green portion refers not to private conversation but to a tool, conveying the following meaning:
a tool that could substitute for the telephone
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   28 Feb 2023, 22:16
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GMATking94 wrote:
vishalsuri wrote:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.


(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards

(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards

(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership

(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards

(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards


Hi Experts GMATNinja KarishmaB egmat GMATGuruNY

I wanted to know if the "touch" rule as it is said is said, only refers to "land" in case of (E) and not the whole thing "communal ownership of land" ??

Please let me know your thoughts. As per me, it clearly conveys the meaning.

Thanks!


"Touch" rule is not sacrosanct but the problem in (E) is the role that a "that clause" plays. Normally, a 'that clause' defines and restricts. It restricts our referent to someone/something specific.

The toy train that the child broke yesterday needs to be thrown away.
'that the child broke yesterday' tells us which toy train.

The book on Callisthenics that Mary wrote is phenomenal.

There are many books on Callisthenics. 'that Mary wrote' defines to which book we are referring - the one that Mary wrote.

If we want to rename 'communal ownership of land,' instead of a 'that clause,' we could use an appositive.
Another problem I have here is with "had been" which I have discussed here: https://gmatclub.com/forum/at-the-time- ... l#p2837046
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   02 Mar 2023, 10:15
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GMATking94 wrote:
vishalsuri wrote:
At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical faction, that of Zapata and his followers, proposed a return to communal ownership of land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.

(A) land, to what had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards

(B) land, a form of ownership of the pre-Columbians and respected by the Spaniards

(C) land, respected by the Spaniards and a pre-Columbian form of ownership

(D) land in which a pre-Columbian form of ownership was respected by the Spaniards

(E) land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards


Hi Experts [url=https://gmatclub.com:443/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&un=GMATNinja%5D%5Bb%5DGMATNinja%5B/b%5D%5B/url%5D [url=https://gmatclub.com:443/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&un=KarishmaB%5D%5Bb%5DKarishmaB%5B/b%5D%5B/url%5D [url=https://gmatclub.com:443/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&un=egmat%5D%5Bb%5Degmat%5B/b%5D%5B/url%5D [url=https://gmatclub.com:443/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&un=GMATGuruNY%5D%5Bb%5DGMATGuruNY%5B/b%5D%5B/url%5D

I wanted to know if the "touch" rule as it is said is said, only refers to "land" in case of (E) and not the whole thing "communal ownership of land" ??

Please let me know your thoughts. As per me, it clearly conveys the meaning.

Thanks!

Public service announcement: there is no "touch" rule! If "that" is used as a modifier, we need to ask ourselves two questions:

    1. Is there a noun or noun phrase the "that" can logically refer to?

    2. Is this this noun or noun phrase reasonably close?

That's it.

The problem with (E) is that there's no noun "that" can logically describe. When we use "that" as a modifier we're differentiating a noun from a larger group. If Tim hates the dogs that are barking, there are, presumably, other dogs that aren't barking, and only the noisy ones are bothering him.

Now go back to (E). Are we talking about "land" that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership, as opposed to other types of land? Well, land isn't itself a type of ownership, so that can't be it.

So are we talking about "communal ownership" that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership, as opposed to other types of communal ownership? That doesn't make much sense. "Communal ownership" just means that the community as a whole owns the land. How many ways could there possibly be to do that?

It makes far more sense to elaborate on the idea of "communal ownership" by pointing out that this was the form of ownership used in pre-Columbian times. This is the meaning we get in (A).

Put another way, (A) is right because it's clearer and more logical, no matter how we interpret (E) -- not because of any "touch" rule.

I hope that helps!
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   01 Jun 2023, 23:23
In option E, I believe "that" can modifiy communal ownership of land.
So how is option E wrong? Please share your insight
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink] New post   08 Jun 2023, 07:49
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muthalgang wrote:
In option E, I believe "that" can modifiy communal ownership of land.

So how is option E wrong? Please share your insight

First of all, remember that GMAT SC is about picking the BEST choice out of the 5 available options, not about labelling each individual choice as right or wrong.

In (A), the repetition of the pronoun ("to communal ownership of land, to what had been...") makes it very clear that the "what had been" part describes "communal ownership of land" and not just "land".

In (E), can "that" technically modify "communal ownership of land"? Sure. But at first glance, it seems to modify "land" alone. Does that make (E) absolutely WRONG? Maybe not, but the structure in (A) makes the meaning clearer, and that makes (A) a better sentence.

Also, you could argue that the meaning is a bit off in (E). (E) suggests that the radical faction didn't want to return to just any old "communal ownership of land" -- instead, they wanted to return to the specific communal ownership of land that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards.

But that isn't quite what we want in this context. The faction wanted to return to communal ownership of land, which, by the way, is something that had been a pre-Columbian form of ownership respected by the Spaniards. That's a subtle distinction, but it's another small vote in favor of (A) over (E).

I hope that helps!
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Re: At the time of the Mexican agrarian revolution, the most radical facti [#permalink]
08 Jun 2023, 07:49
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