Calling all US Military Fall 2012 Applicants!

Consultants can serve a purpose if used appropriately. Your best bet is to exploit those 30 minute assessments they offer. Just go in with a few specific questions and get their insights. I talked to all of them (Sandy, Stacy Blackman, Tyler Chorney, Paul Lanizollotti, Alex Chu, Veritas, Military to Business, etc.). They will usually try to answer your specific questions in order to lure you in. My personal feeling is that at some point in the application process you should seek out someone who’s your polar opposite. Ask them to review parts of the app. If that person gets it then you know you’ve probably successfully articulated your story. You may not get in, but at least you put your best foot forward. I found a gay guy in New York City that was a friend of a friend from West Point. I spoke with him by phone a couple times. At one point, he asked me who the Taliban were. I said, “They are the enemy.” He said, “Where? Aren’t we in like three wars now?” I told him that they are the enemy in Afghanistan. He asked me how long we had been in Afghanistan. “A decade,” I said. And it went like this for a few hours. I think it’s worth it to do this because if you assess the human terrain on these Admissions Committees, you will see that they are disproportionately women. Most of them don’t follow war. For that matter, very few Americans follow war or otherwise care about it.

One of the questions I asked the consultants was why are there relatively few military guys in business school? By this time I’d visited a few schools and they each told me how much they loved the military and how they wanted to increase the number of military personnel in their classes. And yet if you looked at the historical data, military representation was flat or only slightly up. I got a few different explanations for this:

1) A lot of guys don’t pay attention to their grades in undergrad because they know they have a job waiting for them in the military.
2) GMATs trend lower in a lot of cases because you’re not doing work involving GMAT skills.
3) Recommenders screw you. They think they're doing you a favor, but your battalion commander's actually not the best person to write the kind of Rec these schools want to see for a military candidate.
4) Most schools actually don’t like the military that much. They’d get burned at the Fox News stake if they came out and said “Well, we have plenty of military people and we don’t need more.” Sure, they are going to tell you they like you. There's no alternative. In part, they do like you because employers like military guys. The reason business schools are relevant is because of the employers that recruit there. Mr. Military is going to help the schools job stats.

With respect to Vets Clubs, I think they are a mixed bag. If you want to know about the culture of the school, specific classes, clubs and recruiting, then absolutely talk to the Vets Club. As far as Vets Clubs feelings on the getting in, take their advice with a grain of salt. My personal belief is that there is an element of confirmation bias associated with their advice. A student thinks “Well, I did X, Y, and Z. Other people should do that and they will get in just like me.” After you’re in, I’m told Wharton lets you look at your file with the ADCOM’s notes in it. Not sure if this is true, but my point is that I’ve yet to hear of a school where Admissions comes to you and says “Hey Timmy, remember your application? Parts X and Y sucked. We really liked Z and that’s why you’re in.” If Timmy knew that he wouldn’t be advising you to do X and Y, but Timmy most likely doesn’t know that. And what happens if you do parts X and Y, but your Z is actually more Z’? Well, maybe you don’t get in now because of Timmy’s own confirmation bias. So Timmy tried to help you out, but he actually ended up screwing you by accident.

If anything, I think it helps to engage the Vets Club in the off chance that Admissions calls over and asks about your application. “Have you ever heard of this guy? Does he want to be here,” they might ask. And then the Vets Club can say “Yeah, we know Chris. He’s been in touch with us for a few months. He’d be a good fit.” This is more prevalent at the smaller schools though (Darden, Johnson, Stanford, etc.) where “fit” counts for something. The last thing a small school can afford is some guy with a bad haircut throwing off the chemistry of an entire section. As far as HBS, I’m told that Admissions is “highly isolated from the student body.” In other words, HBS Admissions has been doing this for quite a while and they’re not soliciting the input of current students. People that actually attend would know better than me though.

There's definitely incentive for schools to attract more applicants, say good things about vets, and no reason to say anything to the contrary. Based on the relatively small number of vets enrolled at each school, we might indeed face as stiff of competition as any other group.

My main WE is IT, so far not faring well and time for some R3, considering Haas part time.

Honestly, from what I've gathered most adcoms and interviewers are clueless about anything military-related. I wouldn't worry about being judged for not deploying--just talk about the things you did in the assignments you ended up with. Plus if some civilian who's never served accuses you of being a deployment dodger, I think he's fair game to get open-hand slapped.

I wouldn't highlight your lack of deployments, but be ready to explain your situation if an interviewer asks if you've been to Iraq/Afghanistan/etc...i.e. I had a job, I did it as well as I could, I accomplished X and Y and Z, but we were a non-deployable unit and were too short-handed to allow people to deploy as individual augments. It shouldn't be too hard to get them to understand that the military is less than flexible when it comes to accommodating individual requests.

ant, let me know when you get here or if you have any other wharton questions, i will see you at the event, ryan (w '13)

I've never seen a top program with an outdated website--they use it as their primary means of sharing information and getting people interested in the school and its programs. Which ones are you having problems with?

Best option is to get on the email list on the school's application page--you may have to request an application log-in name and password to do so. I remember getting regular updates from several schools last year about when different events were going on in different parts of the country. There should also be some sort of calendar on the admissions page.

Or just email the student ambassadors (or equivalent) or the vets club at the schools you're interested in and ask if they have any information. Vets clubs in particular are usually very responsive. Or post on the "Calling all XXXX applicants" and see if anyone knows anything.

So to answer your question, no, I'm not aware of any centralized clearinghouse that would say "Schools 1 through 10 have these events coming up in these cities." You'll have to do a little legwork on your own.

No US laws apply. The good news is that schools almost universally will allow you to defer for a military deployment. Most schools say they handle deferrals on a "case by case basis," but I've never heard of anyone that didn't get the deferral if it was beyond their control. The MTB blog has a brief story about a Marine reservist that was activated in his first-year. HBS was very supportive.

MIT is the only school that overtly says it's not big on the deferral thing:

Do you offer deferrals?Our general policy is not to defer admission, except in the case of college seniors who wish to get work experience before returning to school.
https://mitsloan.mit.edu/mba/faq/transcripts.php

They might be willing to work with you though.

the way I figure, we're all vets so we're used to the hurry up and wait thing.

Good luck to everyone interviewing for R1. I thought this might help those still in the running for R2...

Here are the top 8 most common mistakes I have seen military applicants make this season. The good news is that just about all of these can be addressed...


8. Not coaching their recommenders sufficiently

It’s the applicant’s responsibility to coach and educate his recommender, but often this is a senior officer, and doing so is contrary to the military chain of command and protocol. This awkwardness often leads to miscommunication and a “hope for the best” approach that won’t cut it.

Recommenders should ideally show new perspectives on the applicant, reinforce key applicant value propositions, and shore up perceived weaknesses. Often none of these happen in a military letter of recommendation. Some senior military leaders have written many letters, and are familiar with the process. Others however may not have a clue for what makes a good LOR, and may revert to language found on an applicant’s military performance report, which is often vague and full of not very useful hyperbole.
Applicants should coach their recommenders by making sure they understand what it is business schools look for, and educate them on their own applications and aspirations so that the recommender can do his part.

Lastly, applicants should follow up regularly with the recommender to make sure the LOR is turned in on time, as late recommendations are unfortunately more common than they should be. If a recommender is waiting until the last minute to write your letter, that is also a bad sign he is not investing the time and thought necessary to write a compelling recommendation.

7. Thinking that they shouldn’t try to communicate specific career goals because they don’t know business well enough

“I don’t know anything about business, so I can’t write a specific career goals essay.” This is an initial approach taken by many military applicants. Showing that you have sufficient introspection to know what kind of career you want to pursue, and the ability to follow through with research as to what that actually means, is part of the point of a career goals essay. Not having business experience is not an excuse.

6. Not having enough non-military people review their application

A military applicant can write an essay that he is in love with, and all his military peers may also love it, but it might be confusing, offensive, or just completely incomprehensible to a civilian reader who has never met anybody from the military. If you have ever returned to your hometown after losing a member of your unit on a deployment, and heard for example, “Afghanistan? Oh, do we still have troops there?” – Then you already know what I am talking about. There is a large part of America that is largely insulated from the military. While we should give the admissions committee the benefit of the doubt, it is still to your benefit to get people who you would never otherwise engage with to provide feedback on your essays. I mean people who live far away from military bases, who don’t know anything about the military, and are a different gender and generation from you. Getting their perspective may point to serious holes in your assumptions about what some people actually know.

5. Writing a resume without a civilian perspective

This one is pretty straightforward. Translating your military accomplishments into civilian friendly language, getting rid of all jargon, and emphasizing what is important to a civilian reader necessitates help from a civilian who knows how to write proper resumes. Make sure you have a trusted advisor for this step.

4. Underestimating the GMAT

Never count on a GMAT score until you have taken the official test. I’ve seen applicants who sometimes consistently score 700 on practice CAT exams end up walking out of the testing center with something in the high 500s. That may be an extreme case, but it’s not uncommon for applicant to score 50-100 points less than they hoped for on the day of the actual exam. The reasons for this are outside the scope of this article, but the point is that don’t count on a score until you have an official one in hand. This means that you shouldn’t go forward with your application with a plan to just take the GMAT late in the ballgame and assume a top score. Taking such a strategy has caused many to delay for a later round, or force an application with a poor score.

The best thing to do is to take the GMAT well in advance…. Well before even starting applications. Having a score in hand will free you up to completely focus on the application itself, and give you a better idea on which schools you should apply to as well. If it’s too late to take it well in advance (at least 6 months prior to the application), then at least leave time to retake the exam a second time after 4-6 weeks if needed. One’s first shot at the GMAT really ought to therefore be an absolute minimum of 10 weeks prior to the application deadline. I also advice applicants not to work on their GMAT prep and essays at the same time if possible. Either is difficult enough on its own and takes a full commitment.

3. Underpreparing for the interview

Most military applicants have never had a b-school style interview in their lives. Knowing how to properly handle insightful questions, awareness of how to read and communicate body language, engaging the interviewer in conversation (not just monologue), feeling confident speaking about your history, your future plans, your familiarity with the school, and current market events, all take some serious time and effort.
Between the GMAT and essays, some applicants may spend hundreds of hours towards their application. With the interview weighing in as much as a third of your overall application, spending an hour or two in preparation shows a complete asymmetry in one’s planning. It would be like spending 200 hours preparing for ingress and egress on a mission, and spending 2 hours for actions on objective. Make sure you get the support you need to prepare if you are unfamiliar with these styles of interviews.

2. Assuming their military experience is unique

Military applicants sometimes think that their international, Pentagon, or MOS experience, by themselves, makes them unique enough to stand out from the crowd. Similarly, some applicants with weak GPAs from a service academy think/hope they will be cut a break from schools because life at a service academy is more demanding than non-service academies. All of the above are poor assumptions to make.

Of all the military applicants at a school like HBS, it is unlikely any MOS or deployment experience is the first they have seen. It is likely there is at least one, if not a half dozen or more other applicants with a similar enough profile. Furthermore, there are plenty of applicants with top GPAs from military academies, so the thought that attendance at a service academy, by itself, will mitigate a low GPA, is also a poor assumption. In other words, one should not over-assume strengths or underplay weaknesses in comparison to his competition.

None of the above implies that one’s military or undergraduate experience cannot be leveraged to deliver a great application. Certainly some experiences can be very compelling; they just can’t be assumed to be enough. It will still take a lot of effort to find your voice.

1. Self-selecting out of top schools

“I don’t have the stats for my dream school, so I’m not going to apply.” – More often than not, this is wrongly assumed. GPA and GMAT are not the only criteria… and why would you ever self-select yourself out anyway? At worst case, you lose the application fee and spent some time adjusting/improving your portfolio of application essays. Why not let the school make the final decision? The only way to guarantee you won’t get in is not to try.

Gryphon - I interviewed at Darden two weeks ago and they are EXTREMELY military friendly. The interview was exactly what you've heard, a 30 discussion about you. The interviewer will not have read your application or resume, which is by design.

It contained only two questions: 1) Tell me about yourself and (after discussing your time in the military/your path to b-school) 2) Why Darden?

As soon as the interviewer found out I was in the Army the entire discussion became very friendly (although it was very low-stress and friendly to begin with). Every person I met during the interview process/school visit thanked me for my service, and went out of their way to communicate how much Darden values us in the military.

Shoot me a message if you have any other questions!

Gryphon, same here. Darden was incredibly military friendly. I met a few professors who were also former military or military brats. You have to expect that, seeing as it is Virginia and in a historically military influenced part of the country. Overall great people, so long as you're honest and have a clear set objective as to why MBA and why Darden, you have no need for panic.

Just got word that I'm in at Kellogg!! Currently deployed, so no phone call (or email for that matter), my status just changed. Pretty stoked. Now just waiting on HBS to release their decisions, which, by the way is a far more applicant-friendly process if you ask me. Setting a date and time to update your status vs. the waiting game of semi-rolling invites/dings is much more civilized. Good luck to everyone else with upcoming admits.

I've enjoyed my time in the SEAL Teams but I'm definitely ready for the next challenge, especially with kinetic ops winding down! I've been getting some pressure from my OPS and CO to let them know if I am staying in or not...I can finally answer them definitively. Although, in the true bureaucratic/military way, my EP now goes to someone else. It's really a headshot if I wanted to stay in the Reserves or come back in after school, but I don't plan on doing either of those things.

Any SPECOPs guys who have any questions, let me know. I'm not an expert by any means but I definitely put the time in to understand the process. Good luck everyone!

Try sending a PM to MITLGO2013, a current student who has posted in this thread.

You didn't mention Yellow Ribbon--most private schools offer YR these days, which will match the VA's contribution of $17.5K if you're at the 100% level on the GI Bill. Throw in YR with the VA's money and you're not going to graduate with anywhere near six-figure debt.

You also may want to confirm that the GI Bill pays full tuition for public schools--I could never get a really good answer on that subject. I know that the GI Bill is supposed to pay tuition at the maximum credit hour rate for a public school in a particular state, but that applies much more directly to undergrads than to grad students. I always got the feeling that $17.5K was the cap for grad schools whether they were public or private. Maybe someone on here at a public school MBA program can confirm how much they're actually getting from the VA.

My advice (same advice I got from a few vets at Stanford last year) is to go to the best school you can get in to and don't worry too much about the money side of things. By "best school" I don't mean to go strictly by rankings--I mean to consider school location, where and what you want to do after graduation, your "fit" at each one, alumni network, course offerings, etc. In the grand scheme of things, $20-30K of student loans is not a lot of money when you're talking about your potential earnings over the next 30-40 years. I turned down merit scholarships at two public schools in favor of another school, and aside from the short-term hit on my bank account I still feel like I made the right call.

I don't think that you are necessarily an outlier. While it may be true that a moderate amount of debt is not too much of a burden over a full career, some people are just more debt-adverse than others. From what you've told us, I think the key point - which you have already mentioned - are your anticipated post-MBA career goals. I'm not talking about the specific industry or functional role, but more so that you've identified making a reasonable living while having work-life balance as being important. To me, that would indicate that the difference between a top 10 school and well-regarded public school might be as great as it might be for someone who is looking to be an investment banker or management consultant.

With regards to the experience, I think it would hard for anyone to really draw a direct comparison between what it would be like at one place versus another . . . hopefully you will be able to visit the schools you are considering to see if anything stands out. Best of luck as you think things through and keep us updated.

The debt is a concern, especially given that tuition increases aren't benchmarked to starting salaries. Graduate Leverage was founded by some HBS students about 6-7 years ago and basically exists to help people figure out how to manage the debt burden. There are a lot of private loans that are better than Grad PLUS. I've not tapped into it yet, but I'll probably ask for a consultation. They can help you shop around. It looks like the real advantage is that they help you consolidate your loans in an efficient way to minimize fees and interest. The first is a direct link to their site. The second link is the article about them on Poets and Quants. The third is an article about schools where the average student will rack up some serious debt.

https://www.graduateleverage.com/student ... ation.aspx
https://poetsandquants.com/2011/08/22/he ... bt-burden/
https://poetsandquants.com/2011/04/25/25 ... -mba-debt/

I think that depends on the scholarship you receive. I received a different letter from each school about how the scholarship would work. In particular, I received one from UCLA that said the money would go directly into my account at three times a year, etc. In no way would the scholarship automatically reduce the tuition I would be charged. Therefore, I'd actually put money in my pocket because the GI Bill would cover my tuition (or at least most of it), and the scholarship would going directly to the bank. Then again, I'm not an active student, so someone else on here might have some better insight.

Fez, I'm far from qualified to speak on the subject, but I would think an Ad-Com would be insane to fault you for applying in R3. IMHO, the other areas of your profile more than compensate for a low GPA. As long as the person reviewing your app understands how intellectually challenging flying fighters is (and not just a technical skill) I would think that you have a good shot any school. That being said, if you feel like you have a few more apps in you, a safety net is never a bad thing. Just my $.02..