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# Challenging Question

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22 Aug 2012, 13:05
Hi Ranjeet,

Following are the links of two articles that deal with the usage of Verb-ed modifier and the difference between the verb-ed modifier and simple past tense. Please go through them. If you still have any doubts regarding any of these topics, feel free to ask us.
verb-ed-modifiers-vs-verb-ing-modifiers-125611.html
ed-forms-verbs-or-modifiers-134691.html

Thanks.
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29 Aug 2012, 08:43
I would appreciate it if experts intervene

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29 Aug 2012, 08:51
Dear Hurrydil,

Did you review the response by Shraddha? Do you have any questions on the same.

-Rajat
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29 Aug 2012, 10:09
I would like to ask one question here.
I know that if the same subject works as a subject as well as an object, then we are supposed to use -Ing and -ed verb form.
My doubt is whether -Ing form is correct even when we are talking about past?
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29 Aug 2012, 11:37
@Siddharthasingh
Why not? Not I am going to use ing forms both in past and present connotations. (Please do not mistake ing forms as just present progressives. They can becomes either present progressives or past progressives only when the auxiliary verbs such as - is or are or was or were - are used in front.)
I am eating---ing used in present progressive
I was eating ---ing used in past progressive
He was eating, they were eating, you were eating,: all are examples of ing forms in the past tense.
To repeat, just the stand-alone- ing -form does not decide the tense.
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29 Aug 2012, 12:12
Thanks daagh.
I know the question was a bit stupid, but after clarification I am on a brighter side.
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29 Jan 2013, 09:21
izaidi wrote:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

This question tests parallel modifiers.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
Not parallel: Relative Pronoun and Present Participle

(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
Parrallel but not as concise as D

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
Not parallel: Relative Pronoun and Present Participle

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed

Correct

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
Parrallel but not as paralell as D

CAN you please post the OA !

Thanks

Hey! why B is not correct? D is totally wrong, because, 'and differed' is there (to be corrected) , which requires parallelism to be established, hence, we have to introduce 'which' before differed. Am I right? please explain where I went wrong.

And also, 'the abolition of local times' is a singular phrase, hence, 'which was determined by when...' is to be used.

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03 Feb 2013, 06:30
If one checks the meaning, one can conclude that differing is correct as local times were offering from region to region.

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02 Apr 2013, 07:28
ranjeet75 wrote:

Why "differed from city to city" is a verb phrase and not a verb-ed modifier. In the context of the sentence

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

If we omit the red coloured part then "differed" can be treated as verb-ed modifier.

Please explain and make me understand the concept.

The simple reason is that because Local Times is working as Subject of the verb differed.

Consider -

1) In colonial era, Painters differed greatly in their arts. --> differ from -(as a verb)
2- Cancer risk profiles differed by Gender and Age are easily available over internet --> working as past participle

Below is the test that I usually perform.
1) Its more of finding if the subject can perform the action. If yes, then its a Verb else it may be Past Participle.
2)If confused whether it is working as past participle or verb, check if there is prep "by" i,.e if its an passive voice, then ed form should work as past participle

Thanks
H
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Last edited by imhimanshu on 02 Apr 2013, 08:22, edited 2 times in total.

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02 Apr 2013, 07:47
Quote:
Al Pacino's Paintings differed in cultural themes were an awe inspiring experience for the Greeks. Here- differed is working as Past Participle.

this is not correct .i hope this (sentence) ur not reproducing from some official source . in fact this sentence is wrong .kindly confirm me that this is not the official sentence

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02 Apr 2013, 08:24
Quote:
Al Pacino's Paintings differed in cultural themes were an awe inspiring experience for the Greeks. Here- differed is working as Past Participle.

this is not correct .i hope this (sentence) ur not reproducing from some official source . in fact this sentence is wrong .kindly confirm me that this is not the official sentence

Edited my post. Nopes, that wasn't an OG question. Apologies for confusion. However, going forward, if you could post a brief explanation about your analysis, that would be helpful.
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13 May 2013, 21:52
Hi,

which refers to aboloition of local times or only local times.???

As per my understanding, which refers to the previous noun ...

So does it refer to local times or abolotion of local times????

ykaiim wrote:
The introductory part is in past tense. So, we need rest of the format in past tense.
1. determined - It is a past participle paralle with led. Moreover it is preferred, IMO, to which were determined

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
The abolition of local times is singular adjectival phrase. So, which were is incorrect.

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

So, E is correct, though best of the all worst.

nusmavrik wrote:
Hi Guys

I am reopening this question- since I am am still not able to zero-in on the answer.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

C / E which one and why ?

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08 Jul 2013, 14:21
can we say then that meaning superseds grammer ?

.........yes indeed, otherwise what is the point of language if we cant convey the right information!

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08 Jul 2013, 20:29
sankey wrote:
can we say then that meaning superseds grammer ?

.........yes indeed, otherwise what is the point of language if we cant convey the right information!

Hi Sankey,
I am not sure why you think that "meaning supersedes grammar"? You are correct in saying that the purpose of language (including rules of grammar) is to express the information. Now per the rule of grammar, elements in the list should be parallel to one another. That is the precise rule that is being followed here. So the correct choice uses appropriate grammatical construction to express the meaning.
Thanks,
Payal
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25 Jul 2013, 12:37
egmat wrote:
Hi guys,
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

• The growth of the railroads led to
o the abolition of local times, and
o the establishment of regional times.
• Two characteristics of local times have been mentioned in the sentence:
o they were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian, and
they differed from city to city.

In option D and E, don't we have a clause without a subject?

1. Singular verb “was” does not agree in number with plural subject “local times”. SV must agree in number error.

2. Also “was” seem to be the verb for “abolition of local times”, meaning abolition was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian. This is certainly not the intended logical meaning of the sentence. Meaning error.

3. The two characteristics of “local times” must be parallel to each other. Here, “which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian” (a clause) is not parallel to “differing from city to city” ( a verb-ed modifier phrase). Parallelism error.

POE:

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Incorrect. Errors discussed above.

(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which differed: Incorrect. Same SV number agreement and meaning errors as in A.

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Incorrect. Same parallelism error as in A.

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed: Incorrect. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier) is not parallel to “differed from city to city” (a verb phrase). Notice here that “determined” is not a verb here. It is a verb-ed modifier that is modifying “local times”. If it were a verb, ther would be no comma before it and the subject and the verb would be connected properly.

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Correct. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier phrase) is parallel to “differing from city to city” (a verb-ing modifier phrase). Both the modifiers are correctly presenting the characteristics of “local times”. Refer to OG 12#42 to see how verb-ing and verb-ed modifiers can be parallel to each other.

1. SV pair must always agree in number.
2. SV pair must always make sense together.
3. In a list of parallelism, all the entities must be grammatically as well as logically parallel.

The concepts tested in this sentence have been covered in e-gmat concepts:
1. Level 1 - SV - Agree in Number (This concept features in Level 1 Preview Concepts that are available for free. Just register and learn.)
2. Level 2 - SV - Make Sense
3. Level 1 - Parallelism - Identify and Correct
4. Level 1 - Parallelism - Helpful Tips

You can also review our article on this topic by clicking on the following link:
verb-ed-verb-ing-can-be-parallel-126923.html

Hope this helps.
Thanks.

In answer choices D and E, don't we have a sentence which has no subject? could you please also mention a bit about the parallel structure that yu deduced over here

thanks
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26 Jul 2013, 06:53
WaterFlowsUp wrote:

In answer choices D and E, don't we have a sentence which has no subject? could you please also mention a bit about the parallel structure that yu deduced over here

thanks

Hi WayerFlowsUp,

Let’s analyze the complete sentence with both the answer choice.

Following is the sentence with Choice D:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

The subject in this sentence is “The growth of the railroads” and the verb is “led”. The word “determined” is the verb-ed modifier that modifies the preceding noun entity “local times”. Presence of “and” here tells us that we have a list here.

Another entity that gives some information about “local times” is “differed from city to city”. However, this entity is not parallel to “determined...”. In structure they do parallel, but actually ther are not because “determined” is a verb-ed modifier and “differed” is a verb. Take these examples:
• Your watch differs from mine.
• Jane’s dress differed from Joan’s.

A modifier cannot be parallel to a verb. Hence this sentence is incorrect. Now let’s study the sentence with Choice E:

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

Here again, the subject is “The growth of the railroads” and the verb is “led”. We know that “determined” is a verb-ed modifier. The error of Choice D has been corrected in this choice by turning the verb “differed” to the verb-ing modifier “differing”. When a verb-ing modifier is not preceded by a comma, it modifies the preceding noun entity. In this case, that entity is “local times”.

So both “determined” and “differing” now present information about the same entity “local times”. Both the entities are noun modifiers. They definitely look different, but they perform the same function, and hence they are parallel.

Read this article to learn how two different looking entities but performing the same function can be parallel:
parallelism-imperfect-list-142791.html

Probably, you thought that these two answer choices do not have a subject because there is no “which” in these options. But then you focused only on the underlined portion of the sentence. This should not be done. An answer choice must be evaluated in the context of the entire sentence. Else, we will land up choosing a wrong answer choice.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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26 Jul 2013, 07:04
Hi WaterFlowsUp,

Here is another similar question that tests the same concepts. Try this out as well.

The increased popularity and availability of televisions has led to the decline of regional dialects, language variations which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated by geographic isolation.

A. which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
B. that originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
C. originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
D. originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
E. originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuating

Thanks.
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27 Jul 2013, 21:02
Quote:
The increased popularity and availability of televisions has led to the decline of regional dialects, language variations which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated by geographic isolation.

A. which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
B. that originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
C. originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
D. originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
E. originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuating

Is OA - D ?

Meaning Analysis
"Language variations...isolation" defines "regional dialects" -- so it should be proper noun phrase

Error
"Language variations which originate" - two errors
* Major error - present tense "originate" makes it a general fact that language variations always originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages.
* Minor error - which is non essential modifier, so it is preferable as "comma which"

Choice Analysis
A) As above
B) This is interesting choice - but "that" clause means - now we are talking about a very specific language variations that originated from X and perpetuated by Y - and we are not talking about all language variations. It might mean there might be other type of language variations.
C) Makes "language variations originated" as a complete clause - but creates IC error.
D) Fixes all errors.
E) "language variations perpetuating by X" is wrong - it shall be "perpetuated by"

If there is contention in the answer choices, it will be between B and D.

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29 Jul 2013, 07:38
shailendrasharma wrote:
Quote:
The increased popularity and availability of televisions has led to the decline of regional dialects, language variations which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated by geographic isolation.

A. which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
B. that originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
C. originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
D. originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
E. originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuating

Is OA - D ?

Meaning Analysis
"Language variations...isolation" defines "regional dialects" -- so it should be proper noun phrase

Error
"Language variations which originate" - two errors
* Major error - present tense "originate" makes it a general fact that language variations always originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages.
* Minor error - which is non essential modifier, so it is preferable as "comma which"

Choice Analysis
A) As above
B) This is interesting choice - but "that" clause means - now we are talking about a very specific language variations that originated from X and perpetuated by Y - and we are not talking about all language variations. It might mean there might be other type of language variations.
C) Makes "language variations originated" as a complete clause - but creates IC error.
D) Fixes all errors.
E) "language variations perpetuating by X" is wrong - it shall be "perpetuated by"

If there is contention in the answer choices, it will be between B and D.

Hi Shailendra,

You have arrived at the correct answer choice. But I'm afraid, the reasons you have given to eliminate choices A and B are not convincing.
Let's wait for a few more analyses. Then I will post the detailed solution with solid reasons to eliminate choice A and B along with other two.

Thanks.
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15 Apr 2014, 17:41
egmat wrote:
shailendrasharma wrote:
Quote:
The increased popularity and availability of televisions has led to the decline of regional dialects, language variations which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated by geographic isolation.

A. which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
B. that originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
C. originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
D. originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
E. originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuating

Is OA - D ?

Meaning Analysis
"Language variations...isolation" defines "regional dialects" -- so it should be proper noun phrase

Error
"Language variations which originate" - two errors
* Major error - present tense "originate" makes it a general fact that language variations always originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages.
* Minor error - which is non essential modifier, so it is preferable as "comma which"

Choice Analysis
A) As above
B) This is interesting choice - but "that" clause means - now we are talking about a very specific language variations that originated from X and perpetuated by Y - and we are not talking about all language variations. It might mean there might be other type of language variations.
C) Makes "language variations originated" as a complete clause - but creates IC error.
D) Fixes all errors.
E) "language variations perpetuating by X" is wrong - it shall be "perpetuated by"

If there is contention in the answer choices, it will be between B and D.

Hi Shailendra,

You have arrived at the correct answer choice. But I'm afraid, the reasons you have given to eliminate choices A and B are not convincing.
Let's wait for a few more analyses. Then I will post the detailed solution with solid reasons to eliminate choice A and B along with other two.

Thanks.

The increased popularity and availability of televisions has led to the decline of regional dialects,
language variations which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and
perpetuated by geographic isolation.

1) The last line has by, that means between perpetuating/perpetuated we will chose perpetuated as ‘by’ is suggesting it is a passive sentence.
2) Hence, perpetuated is a verb-ed modifier and not a verb as the doer of the action is not subject (language variations)
3) For originate we need a modifier and not a verb to make it parallel.

(A) which originate from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
after which we should have a ‘comma’ and to maintain parallelism which should also come after and. So A is wrong

(B) that originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
same as A, that is not parallel

(C) originated from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
originated here is acting as a verb and not as a participle, as it correctly answers the question, ‘Who originated from diverse blah blah blah’ Ans: Language variations

(D) originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuated
When a verb-ing modifier is not preceded by a comma, it always modifies the previous noun entity - a single word noun or a noun phrase.

(E) originating from diverse ethnic and cultural heritages and perpetuating

Hence, D.

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Re: Challenging Question   [#permalink] 15 Apr 2014, 17:41

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