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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
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SidJainGMAT wrote:
Hello Verbal Experts (e-Gmat/GMATNinja),

In option A, in which is far away from the noun (cycle) it is referring to. Is this correct behavior?
I had read somewhere that Noun Modifier cannot topple the verb to refer to the subject.
In this case it is toppling verb 'has begun' to refer to the subject 'cycle'.
Because of this I eliminated A & B.
Can someone please comment on this


There are some exceptions to the modifier touch rule you are referring to - These exceptions are well explained in Manhattan SC guide. One such exception is that if the modifier of the subject of a sentence is very long compared to the predicate of the sentence, then the modifier can be separated from the subject and positioned AFTER the predicate. This is such an exception: The very long modifier "in which personal computer users....models" for the subject "a cycle" is separated and placed AFTER the short predicate "has begun".
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
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noboru wrote:
OA is A.
I have 2 questions:
i) What's wrong with C?
ii) Would not "cycle" and "in which" have to be together?
Thanks.



A. You want "especially corporate consumers" to be as close as possible to "personal computer users". We can therefore eliminate B,E. Out the remain options A is the best becos its in the past perfect. Action has started and will continue into the future.
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
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First of all...I am fairly sure this isn't a sub 600 question. Secondly, I'm very puzzled at the high accuracy rate for this one. My guess here is that this is one of those questions..where you "use your ears" and just get it right.

This question can be eliminated purely by using meaning: economists have suggested that a new cycle is beginning (#PCMasterRace!!!)

A. a cycle has begun in which personal computer users
=> Sounds legit (or..you may say leet)
B. a cycle for personal computer users has begun in which they
=> the cycle isn't for personal computers (it's for the whole universe to gasp and wonder!)
C. there is a cycle beginning for personal computer users
=> the cycle isn't for personal computers (it's for the whole universe to gasp and wonder!)
D. it is the beginning of a cycle for personal computer users
=> the cycle isn't for personal computers (it's for the whole universe to gasp and wonder!)
E. personal computer users are in the beginning of a cycle when they
=> users aren't in the cycle themselves (although I'd like to explore that continuum)
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
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singh7 wrote:
The modifier doesn't touch the noun it modifies, then how is it correct?


When a relative clause has a preposition, we often place the preposition before the relative clause to make the sentence more formal.

'She is the friend to whom I gave my ticket' is more formal than 'she is the friend whom I gave my ticket to.'
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Tanchat wrote:
So it is acceptable for prep. + which to follow a noun. is it clear?
I usually find : A place, at which Mr.A met Mrs.B, is in France. which is closed to " A Place". I have never found that prep. + Which can follow a verb.


Yes, it is a lot more common that the noun is placed right next to "in which" and the "which" modifies the noun but there is no such "rule". Depending on requirement, we decide what works best. Hence, I use the words "usually," "normally" etc a whole lot in grammar discussions.
Clarity and unambiguous usage are very important.

A cycle has begun in which A is doing B.
- is clear and we know that 'which' is talking about the cycle.
If we were to place "in which" right next to "cycle," the verb would appear much later and the continuity would be lost. Since the predicate is short (has begun) and does not introduce any ambiguity, we can place the modifier later.
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
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Hello Verbal Experts (e-Gmat/GMATNinja),

In option A, in which is far away from the noun (cycle) it is referring to. Is this correct behavior?
I had read somewhere that Noun Modifier cannot topple the verb to refer to the subject.
In this case it is toppling verb 'has begun' to refer to the subject 'cycle'.
Because of this I eliminated A & B.
Can someone please comment on this
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
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Well, for the simple reason that which is a relative pronoun and hence, can only modify a noun (not a verb).
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
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Tanchat wrote:
nick_sun wrote:
Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer companies, economists feel that a cycle has begun in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models.

A. a cycle has begun in which personal computer users
B. a cycle for personal computer users has begun in which they
C. there is a cycle beginning for personal computer users
D. it is the beginning of a cycle for personal computer users
E. personal computer users are in the beginning of a cycle when they



Dear experts GMATNinja AndrewN KarishmaB

Is it possible that “in which follows verb ?
Could you help elaborate why A is correct?
I don’t want to remember all exceptions.

Posted from my mobile device


We don't have any such restrictions. A prepositional phrase can follow a verb.

The game was played in Italy.
Impressionism started in Paris in the 1860s.

Here, the 'that clause' is:
a cycle has begun in which personal computer users ...are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models.

The relative pronoun 'which' is the object of the preposition 'in.'
'which' replaces 'cycle' and the preposition is placed before it. The relative clause is 'personal computer users ...are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models in this cycle'

This is how we have combined the below given two clauses together:
- a cycle has begun
- 'personal computer users ...are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models in this cycle'
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
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Tanchat wrote:
nick_sun wrote:
Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer companies, economists feel that a cycle has begun in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models.

A. a cycle has begun in which personal computer users
B. a cycle for personal computer users has begun in which they
C. there is a cycle beginning for personal computer users
D. it is the beginning of a cycle for personal computer users
E. personal computer users are in the beginning of a cycle when they



Dear experts GMATNinja AndrewN KarishmaB

Is it possible that “in which follows verb ?
Could you help elaborate why A is correct?
I don’t want to remember all exceptions.

Posted from my mobile device



Hello Tanchat,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, since "which" is a relative pronoun, the phrase "in which" can only modify the noun "cycle", not the verb "has begun"; the sentence formed by Option A is just a slightly less direct way of writing "a cycle, in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models, has begun."

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Tanchat wrote:

In this form : a cycle, in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models, has begun. which is literally closed to "a cycle". I'm not sure whether the sentence formed by Option A is acceptable and "clear". I understand that there is no "touch rule" but the sentence formed by A is weird for me.


Hello Tanchat,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, as we mentioned, the alternate construction we have provided is more direct, but the sentence formed by Option A is also perfectly valid; since "in which" can only logically act upon "cycle", there is no ambiguity at play here.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
OA is A.
I have 2 questions:
i) What's wrong with C?
ii) Would not "cycle" and "in which" have to be together?
Thanks.
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
EducationAisle

In choice A how "in which" can jump over verb and modify a cycle?

Thank you
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
The modifier doesn't touch the noun it modifies, then how is it correct?
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
nick_sun wrote:
Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer companies, economists feel that a cycle has begun in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models.

A. a cycle has begun in which personal computer users
B. a cycle for personal computer users has begun in which they
C. there is a cycle beginning for personal computer users
D. it is the beginning of a cycle for personal computer users
E. personal computer users are in the beginning of a cycle when they



Dear experts GMATNinja AndrewN KarishmaB

Is it possible that “in which follows verb ?
Could you help elaborate why A is correct?
I don’t want to remember all exceptions.

Posted from my mobile device
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
ExpertsGlobal5 wrote:
Tanchat wrote:
nick_sun wrote:
Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer companies, economists feel that a cycle has begun in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models.

A. a cycle has begun in which personal computer users
B. a cycle for personal computer users has begun in which they
C. there is a cycle beginning for personal computer users
D. it is the beginning of a cycle for personal computer users
E. personal computer users are in the beginning of a cycle when they



Dear experts GMATNinja AndrewN KarishmaB

Is it possible that “in which follows verb ?
Could you help elaborate why A is correct?
I don’t want to remember all exceptions.

Posted from my mobile device



Hello Tanchat,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, since "which" is a relative pronoun, the phrase "in which" can only modify the noun "cycle", not the verb "has begun"; the sentence formed by Option A is just a slightly less direct way of writing "a cycle, in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models, has begun."

We hope this helps.
All the best!
Experts' Global Team


In this form : a cycle, in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models, has begun. which is literally closed to "a cycle". I'm not sure whether the sentence formed by Option A is acceptable and "clear". I understand that there is no "touch rule" but the sentence formed by A is weird for me.
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
KarishmaB wrote:
Tanchat wrote:
nick_sun wrote:
Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer companies, economists feel that a cycle has begun in which personal computer users, especially corporate consumers, are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models.

A. a cycle has begun in which personal computer users
B. a cycle for personal computer users has begun in which they
C. there is a cycle beginning for personal computer users
D. it is the beginning of a cycle for personal computer users
E. personal computer users are in the beginning of a cycle when they



Dear experts GMATNinja AndrewN KarishmaB

Is it possible that “in which follows verb ?
Could you help elaborate why A is correct?
I don’t want to remember all exceptions.

Posted from my mobile device


We don't have any such restrictions. A prepositional phrase can follow a verb.

The game was played in Italy.
Impressionism started in Paris in the 1860s.

Here, the 'that clause' is:
a cycle has begun in which personal computer users ...are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models.

The relative pronoun 'which' is the object of the preposition 'in.'
'which' replaces 'cycle' and the preposition is placed before it. The relative clause is 'personal computer users ...are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models in this cycle'

This is how we have combined the below given two clauses together:
- a cycle has begun
- 'personal computer users ...are replacing their PC’s with more powerful models in this cycle'


So it is acceptable for prep. + which to follow a noun. is it clear?
I usually find : A place, at which Mr.A met Mrs.B, is in France. which is closed to " A Place". I have never found that prep. + Which can follow a verb.
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Re: Citing the recent increase in earnings by several computer [#permalink]
As per my understanding , in option B pronoun they is clearly referring to personal computer users. But I have seen many posts where people have mentioned , that "they"
does not have clear referent.

Also if there is no pronoun issue why B is a better option than A .
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