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Does "That" have to be next to the noun it modifies? [#permalink]
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varotkorn wrote:
Dear AnthonyRitz

When I see this question https://gmatclub.com/forum/visitors-to- ... l#p2458964, I have some more questions. (Please don't get tired of me yet :-D )
AnthonyRitz wrote:
Okay, disclaimer finished. In each of the cases you cite, "that" acts as a relative pronoun. "that" is a more flexible relative pronoun than, for instance, "which," but it still mostly has to be next to what it modifies. The rule, as I teach it, is as follows:

A relative clause almost always modifies the closest noun of the right type to fit the relative pronoun.

The key point here is the phrase "right type to fit the relative pronoun." The pronoun "that" generally refers to objects (in rare cases it can refer to people, but it does not usually do so). So it will almost always have to modify the closest *object* in the preceding portion of the sentence.

The principle applies only to relative clause but does not apply to V-ing modifier (modifying noun), right?

Official example:
Like the great navigators who first sailed around the Earth gathering information about its size and the curvature of its surface, astronomers have made new observations that show with startling directness the large-scale geometry of the universe.

Here "gathering information" jumps over relative clause to modify "navigators".

So, V-ing modifier is more flexible than relative clause, right?
And when you say "almost always", there are some questions not following this rule, right?
But the other OG question I posted above seems to reject choice E. based solely on this rule.


Participle phrases also generally have to be next to what they modify. The main exception is that (1) a participle phrase (2) at the end of the sentence (or clause) (3) set off by a comma (4) correctly modifies a nonadjacent word earlier in the sentence (5) as long as it's clear.

So your example sentence seems to narrowly violate this rule. But it does sound okay. It may be wrong, or there may be some other narrow exception it relies upon. I'd have to see the full question and my other choices to know.

Update: I went and found it and I'd totally pick this answer over any other. It's correct. I'd guess that it omits the comma for style and clarity reasons, since it's in the modifier that starts with "like" and could otherwise seem to apply to the subsequent "astronomers." "who sailed" is a clause, containing, as it does, both subject and verb (like every relative clause), and this participle phrase is at the end of it. So hey, close enough.

And yes -- there do exist other exceptions to this rule as well as the aforementioned rule for relative pronouns. But also yes, many questions do not meet exceptions and are wrong solely for violating these rules.

If you spend your study time looking for exceptions to exceptions to exceptions, I guarantee you will always find them. This is the wrong way to study sentence correction. You need to do process of elimination on SC, and you have to learn to prioritize -- to say, "Gosh, I'm not entirely sure about this answer choice, or maybe I don't even like it, but I absolutely will not tolerate that answer and that one and that one and that one, so I guess I'll pick this one by default." There is often something in a 700-level right answer to a sentence correction question that you simply won't like.
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Re: Does "That" have to be next to the noun it modifies? [#permalink]
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jasonfodor wrote:
Inside a prep book the following sentence is WRONG on the grounds that "that" modifies the closest noun "home".

John F. Kennedy, one of the most social U.S. presidents, held many parties in his family home that featured elaborate meals of local fish and lobster, famous guest and late nights.

Essentially the book says this is wrong because "that" modifies home; logically the home didn't feature meals, fish, guest etc., the parties did, not homes.

There actually are numerous officially correct examples where that does not modify the nearest noun.

Quote:
However, in the same book, the following sentence is CORRECT with the reasoning that "that" is not restrictive and clearly modifies parties.

I am assuming you mean restrictive, since that is a restrictive pronoun.

Quote:
John held parties for his kids that featured clowns, numerous exotic animals, and lots of food.

Can't we use the same logic that kids can't feature clowns, animals foods etc. How is it that in this example it clearly modifies parties, but in the above that doesn't clearly modify parties and rather can modify home.

that can only modify non-persons. So, that cannot modify kids.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses usage of "that", its application and examples in significant detail. If you or someone is interested, PM me your email-id; I can mail the corresponding section.
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Does "That" have to be next to the noun it modifies? [#permalink]
Dear VeritasPrepBrian VeritasKarishma VeritasPrepRon AnthonyRitz VeritasPrepHailey VeritasPrepErika VeritasPrepBrandon

Dear the author of Veritas SC book and all Veritas verbal experts, I have similar problems in the seeming INCONSISTENCY found in Veritas SC book as well.

P. 161 Q. 18 in Veritas SC book:
The following sentence is WRONG on the grounds that "that" modifies the closest noun "home".
According to the solution: "Because "that featured..." follows "home," the sentence suggests that the home "featured elaborate meals of local fish and lobster, famous guests, and late nights," and that is clearly ILLOGICAL"
Quote:
John F. Kennedy, one of the most social U.S. presidents, held many parties in his family home that featured elaborate meals of local fish and lobster, famous guest and late nights.


P. 39 Q. 1 in Veritas SC book:
However, in the same book, the following sentence is CORRECT with the reasoning that "that" is not restrictive and clearly modifies parties.
According to the solution: "Here the relative clause that featured clowns, numerous exotic animals, and lots of food is properly modifying "parties." Remember: "That" clauses are not nearly as strict as "which" clauses and can modify a noun that is not directly beside it.
Quote:
John held parties for his kids that featured clowns, numerous exotic animals, and lots of food.


P. 39 Q. 2 in Veritas SC book:
the following sentence is WRONG
The solution is not clear to me :(
According to the solution : "Here the relative clause that featured clowns, numerous exotic animals, and lots of food is illogically modifying "house"
Quote:
John held parties in his house that featured clowns, numerous exotic animals, and lots of food.


If possible, could you please provide official examples for the 3 cases above.
Thank you all! :please :please :please

Originally posted by kornn on 09 Feb 2020, 23:30.
Last edited by kornn on 10 Feb 2020, 00:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Does "That" have to be next to the noun it modifies? [#permalink]
Dear GMATGuruNY,

The below sentence should be wrong right?
Quote:
John held parties for his kids that featured clowns, numerous exotic animals, and lots of food.


Quote:
Following sentence,however, is incorrect-
Mary placed all of the cookies on the table that John had baked.
On the table is an adverbial prep phrase modifying placed.
As Mitch has mentioned, that clause cannot jump adverbial prep phrase.( we don't have any such instance in official material).


"for his kids" is an adverbial prep phrase here because it modifies "held"
So, "that" clause cannot jump adverbial prep phrase.

Is this correct?
Thank you sir! :please :please :please
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Does "That" have to be next to the noun it modifies? [#permalink]
Dear AnthonyRitz,

Thank you for your response. It is very clear :) :) :)

I have one question below:
AnthonyRitz wrote:
P.s. To address the question you posed to another tutor, I will note one more thing:

You said,
varotkorn wrote:
"for his kids" is an adverbial prep phrase here because it modifies "held"

I believe that "for his kids" is actually an adjectival modifier that modifies "parties."


According to Veritas SC book, the correct sentence is:
Quote:
... should be written as follows: In his house, John held parties that featured clowns, numerous exotic animals, and lots of food.

From the above, I think that "in his house" is an adverbial modifier because it modifies the verb "held". Where were the parties held? At John's house.

If it is an adjectival modifier, "in his house" would EITHER modify John (clearly not an intended meaning) OR jump over the verb "held" to modify "parties" (I don't know if an adjectival modifier can jump over a verb)

Similarly, I think "for his kids" modifies "held". For whom these parties were held? For John's kids.

That's why I think "in his house" - and similarly "for his kids" - are both adverbial modifiers.

Could you please clarify why both or either one of them is adjectival modifier?

Thank you! :please :please :please

Originally posted by kornn on 10 Feb 2020, 01:07.
Last edited by kornn on 10 Feb 2020, 01:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Does "That" have to be next to the noun it modifies? [#permalink]
Dear AnthonyRitz

When I see this question https://gmatclub.com/forum/visitors-to- ... l#p2458964, I have some more questions. (Please don't get tired of me yet :-D )
AnthonyRitz wrote:
Okay, disclaimer finished. In each of the cases you cite, "that" acts as a relative pronoun. "that" is a more flexible relative pronoun than, for instance, "which," but it still mostly has to be next to what it modifies. The rule, as I teach it, is as follows:

A relative clause almost always modifies the closest noun of the right type to fit the relative pronoun.

The key point here is the phrase "right type to fit the relative pronoun." The pronoun "that" generally refers to objects (in rare cases it can refer to people, but it does not usually do so). So it will almost always have to modify the closest *object* in the preceding portion of the sentence.

The principle applies only to relative clause but does not apply to V-ing modifier (modifying noun), right?

Official example:
Like the great navigators who first sailed around the Earth gathering information about its size and the curvature of its surface, astronomers have made new observations that show with startling directness the large-scale geometry of the universe.

Here "gathering information" jumps over relative clause to modify "navigators".

So, V-ing modifier is more flexible than relative clause, right?
And when you say "almost always", there are some questions not following this rule, right?
But the other OG question I posted above seems to reject choice E. based solely on this rule.
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Re: Does "That" have to be next to the noun it modifies? [#permalink]
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