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# Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR

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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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21 Feb 2018, 21:55
1
GMATNinja

a. Do you recommend to time one self while attempting LSAT Qs?
You mentioned 80% accuracy in an hour here
Any opinion on no of qs here?

b. Out of below two situations:
1. A students in mid 20s score in verbal after exhausting
OG and QP turning to LSAT for additional practice.
2. A student in 40s, attempting for an elite score of 45+ after ensuring 70% + accuracy in
700 level OG qs

Is LSAT ideally suited for (2)?

Eagerly waiting to hear your views for above.
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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12 May 2018, 05:34
GMATNinja wrote:
Pretty much all of the "10 LSAT PrepTests" books are the same. I guess I'd mildly recommend one of the slightly older ones, since they don't include those comparative reading RC passages -- so anything before PrepTest #60 or so. The Next 10 Actual, Official LSAT PrepTests is my default (tests #29-38), but you can't go wrong with any of them.

Out of curiosity, are you finding those LSAT Hacks explanations useful?

Hi GMATNinja

I have exhausted all OG and MG Guide/PowerScore questions but there is no marked improvement. My accuracy rate is barely 60%
I cant go back to doing these questions again since i tend to remember the answers.
I have LSAT prepTests from #1 to #60 (only the questions). I solved RC questions from #29 and they seemed very GMAT-y. So yay for that!

Do you think solving LSAT Logical Reasoning would help me improve my accuracy rate? If not, then what would?

Also, your detailed explanations on SC qotds have helped me understand certain concepts so well! A BIG thank you for that!
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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13 May 2018, 11:43
1
Bakshi wrote:

Hi GMATNinja

I have exhausted all OG and MG Guide/PowerScore questions but there is no marked improvement. My accuracy rate is barely 60%
I cant go back to doing these questions again since i tend to remember the answers.
I have LSAT prepTests from #1 to #60 (only the questions). I solved RC questions from #29 and they seemed very GMAT-y. So yay for that!

Do you think solving LSAT Logical Reasoning would help me improve my accuracy rate? If not, then what would?

Also, your detailed explanations on SC qotds have helped me understand certain concepts so well! A BIG thank you for that!

Glad to hear that the SC QOTDs are helping!

On one hand, if you've already exhausted the official GMAT questions, then LSATs are likely to be your best bet for CR, too. As explained in the original article, LSAT CRs ("logical reasoning" in LSAT-speak) aren't EXACTLY like GMAT CRs, but the skills you need to be successful on them are essentially the same. With only very rare exceptions, we've found that our students' LSAT results correlate very strongly with their GMAT results.

On the other hand, I'm worried that just doing more practice will miss the point in your case. In general, LSAT CRs are more difficult than the average GMAT OG CR question, so if you're at 60% in the OG, the LSATs might be demoralizing. You could give them a try, and see how you do -- they'll feel hard, but if you see some improvement over time, then keep going with them.

It's also possible that the real issue is something else: maybe you're struggling to be precise in your reading, or maybe the issue has something to do with your approach to questions, or your grasp of the underlying logic. Obviously, I don't really know what, exactly, is holding you back -- but take a look at this article if you haven't already, and see if that helps you think a bit about what the real issue might be.

Bottom line: more practice is generally good and LSATs are probably your best bet, but if you're doing exactly the same thing over and over -- without addressing the underlying problem -- then you might just see the same results over and over.

Sorry, that probably wasn't terribly satisfying, but I hope that it helps a little bit!
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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13 May 2018, 12:55
The beginner's guide helped me find the problem at least - I think i fall in love with the first answer that kind of/sort of strikes me as correct and from there on its me defending that answer against others. And you very rightly pointed it out here,"And if you’re struggling on CR, I’ll bet that you’re missing those little modifiers more often than you’d like."

It's a very good post. Need to spend more time on it.

Thank you so much GMATNinja!
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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13 May 2018, 12:59
1
Bakshi wrote:
The beginner's guide helped me find the problem at least - I think i fall in love with the first answer that kind of/sort of strikes me as correct and from there on its me defending that answer against others. And you very rightly pointed it out here,"And if you’re struggling on CR, I’ll bet that you’re missing those little modifiers more often than you’d like."

It's a very good post. Need to spend more time on it.

Thank you so much GMATNinja!

Awesome, I'm glad that the post got you somewhere!

One last thought: if you do decide to jump into the LSATs, one goal should be to have your RC results roughly match your CR ("logical reasoning") results, both in terms of accuracy and timing. My bet is that the "falling in love" and "missing modifier" issues are hurting you more on CR than on RC. Once you've mostly fixed those issues, your results should look basically the same on RC and CR.

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RC, CR, and other articles & resources: All GMAT Ninja articles on GMAT Club | Using LSAT for GMAT CR & RC |7 reasons why your actual GMAT scores don't match your practice test scores | How to get 4 additional "fake" GMAT Prep tests for \$29.99 | Time management on verbal

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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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19 May 2018, 23:56
Hello everyone,

does any of you have the pdf/link for Lsat practice RC passages.

I found only 3 rc's on their website
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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20 May 2018, 00:12
1
saurabh9gupta wrote:
Hello everyone,

does any of you have the pdf/link for Lsat practice RC passages.

I found only 3 rc's on their website

Hey saurabh9gupta ,

Here you go: https://gmatclub.com/forum/lsat-rc-coll ... 50720.html

Good luck
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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09 Jan 2019, 11:29
GMATNinja wrote:

Using LSAT for GMAT CR and RC

If you’re a regular visitor to the GMAT Club verbal forums, you might already be familiar with the painful fact that it can be difficult to improve on GMAT CR and RC. Unless you’re one of the lucky few who can effortlessly conquer CR and RC, you probably also know that there are no magic formulas or quick fixes on CR or RC.

Some of my favorite stories of GMAT glory come from test-takers who improved by leaps and bounds after Herculean efforts on CR and RC. After several years(!) of battling the GMAT, GMAT Club legend Abhishek.pitti completed his quest from 420 to 570 to 590 to 700 to HBS only after he started focusing on CR and RC.
I once worked with a student who did 4,000 CR and RC practice questions – and she was rewarded with a 750 and a ticket to HBS.

Hopefully, you won’t need to take your CR and RC studies to such extremes. But if you think that you’ll need extra practice on CR and RC, you might consider using our favorite non-GMAT tool: official LSAT questions.

LSAT questions aren’t perfect for everybody, but here are a few reasons why the LSAT might be a worthwhile supplement to your GMAT study materials:

Reason #1: you’re running out of official GMAT RC and CR questions

As many of you know, absolutely nothing beats official GMAT questions. The GMAT spends somewhere between \$1500 and \$3000 perfecting every single test question – and even the very best test-prep companies simply can’t compete with that.

But there’s a huge problem: there really aren’t that many official GMAT questions available to us. The GMAT OGs, the official verbal review guides, and the GMATPrep Question Pack offer a grand total of around 400 CR and 400 RC questions, even if you dive into older editions of the books. That might sound like a lot, but if you do 20 CRs and 20 RCs every day, you’ll exhaust the supply in a few weeks.

The LSAT is the next-best thing. Each LSAT question is painstakingly tested and vetted – just like official GMAT questions. And the supply of official LSAT questions is nearly limitless: there are currently about 80 official LSAT exams in print, each of which contains roughly 50 CR questions (known as logical reasoning on the LSAT) and 25 RC questions, for a grand total of around 6000(!!) high-quality practice questions.

So if you need extra CR or RC practice, you’ll never run out of LSAT materials.

Reason #2: official LSAT questions are harder than most GMAT questions

Another problem with the official GMAT questions is that many of them are too easy if you’re shooting for a GMAT score of 650 or above. The OGs and Question Pack feature a reasonably representative cross-section of questions, ranging from the very easiest (“200-level questions,” in theory) to the very toughest (“800-level questions”). So if you crave a top-tier GMAT score, perhaps only the toughest 50% of GMAT Official Guide questions will give you an adequate verbal workout.

But LSAT questions are consistently really, really tough. If we imagine that the questions in the GMAT OGs range in difficulty from 200 to 800, I’d argue that LSAT questions range from something like 500 to 850. LSAT RC passages are, on average, much longer than GMAT RC passages, and the language is generally more challenging than anything you’ll encounter on the GMAT. And that’s wonderful if you’re striving for an elite GMAT score. Even if your reading skills are absolutely spectacular, we promise that the hardest LSAT CR and RC questions will make you sweat.

So if you want to work out your reading muscles at a high level, nothing in the test-prep world is better than retired LSAT exams.

Reason #3: the differences between LSAT and GMAT questions are mostly cosmetic

Let’s be honest: the LSAT isn’t exactly the GMAT. LSAT RC passages are, on average, longer and wordier than their GMAT counterparts. The GMAT prefers realistic-sounding passages about business and politics, while the LSAT often strays into abstract philosophical, literary, and legal topics. Many LSAT answer choices sound like “legalese,” with plenty of mumbo-jumbo about premises and patterns of reasoning. And some LSAT question types – most notably the parallel reasoning questions – barely appear on the GMAT at all.

But after assigning LSAT questions to hundreds of GMAT students over the years, we're convinced that the LSAT is 100% worthwhile for anybody chasing an elite score. Despite the cosmetic differences between the two tests, the skills required to succeed on the LSAT are exactly the same as those needed to beat the GMAT: you’ll need to read the passages with pinpoint precision, apply airtight logic, have a flawless understanding of the structure and scope of the passage, and ensure that outside information never sneaks into your thought process.

The bottom line: if you can consistently crush LSAT questions, you’ll do really, really well on GMAT CR and RC.

I’m the first to admit that a pile of LSAT books won’t magically cure all of your GMAT verbal problems. If you’re struggling with the language or logic of basic GMAT verbal questions, the LSAT might be overkill. In the long run, LSAT questions can definitely help you improve your fundamental reading and logical skills – but they’re no magic bullet, and they can be demoralizing if your skills aren’t already pretty good.

But if you’re interested in challenging yourself with some LSAT materials, I’d recommend starting with the 25 RC and 50 CR (“logical reasoning”) questions available in sections 2-4 of the free, official test on the LSAT website. (I’d also recommend ignoring the LSAT’s ridiculous time limit of 35 minutes per section. If you can do each set of 25 questions in less than an hour, you’re doing great.)

If you want more, you can move on to any of the LSAT’s creatively-named books: 10 Actual, Official LSAT PrepTests, or The Next 10 Actual, Official LSAT PrepTests, or any other similarly-named book – though none of them include answer explanations. Alternatively, you could pick up The Official LSAT SuperPrep I or The Official LSAT SuperPrep II, each of which includes three tests with detailed, official explanations.

Got questions? Feel free to ask us anything about the LSAT below.
Hi GMATNinja, what materials should anyone study the concepts behind the LSAT CR & RC?

I HAVE A COPY OF Power score LSAT Bible, is it enough?

Sent from my BAC-L21 using GMAT Club Forum mobile app
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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01 Jun 2019, 01:49
Dear GMATNinja,
Thank you for this wonderful post. After reading your post, I am excited to find out about official LSAT RC and LR material . I was looking for additional material to boost my GMAT Verbal scores and I agree with you that LSAT RC and LR material can be helpful.

In summary, my question here is, just like I can now work with Official LSAT RC and LR problems, are there any place I can find high quality Sentence Correction material outside of Official GMAT resources? LSAT does not have SC sections.

To give you a brief background information, I scored 730 (Q50/V38) on an official GMAT back in 2013. That score has expired and now I am trying to retake the GMAT to apply to business school hopefully this fall. I retook official GMAT's this summer and have canceled those scores because I am not happy with my scores.
Here's what I got in April and May this year (2019):

700 (Q49, V35, IR8) on April 24, 2019
720 (Q49, V40, IR7) on May 11, 2019
720 (Q49, V40, IR8) on May 28, 2019

From the ESR's as you can see below, it seems like my strengths and weaknesses vary from one test to another:
April 24 —> May 11 —> May 28
Sub-section rankings:
CR - 65th —> 94th —> 88th

RC - 88th —> 76th —> 60th

SC - 59th —> 81st —> 96th

My target score this summer is 750 (Q50, V42) and to get that extra 2+ points in the Verbal section, I see that I need to work on all CR, RC, and SC. I am excited to find out that working with Official LSAT LR and RC problems could give me that boost I need. But to balance things out, where can I find extra SC material as I am running out of GMAT SC material?

=)
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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01 Jun 2019, 09:49
2
2
serpent333 wrote:
Dear GMATNinja,
Thank you for this wonderful post. After reading your post, I am excited to find out about official LSAT RC and LR material . I was looking for additional material to boost my GMAT Verbal scores and I agree with you that LSAT RC and LR material can be helpful.

In summary, my question here is, just like I can now work with Official LSAT RC and LR problems, are there any place I can find high quality Sentence Correction material outside of Official GMAT resources?

Glad that you enjoyed the post, and thank you for the kind words!

Sadly, the answer to your question about SC is no. The SAT and ACT (United States undergraduate entrance exams, for anybody who's unfamiliar) have messed around with their own versions of sentence correction, but they're radically different from the GMAT, and won't help you at all, unfortunately. So you're stuck with official GMAT materials for SC.

It stinks, but the best thing is to use those official GMAT questions very, very carefully from the beginning. If you've mostly used newer editions of the OGs, you could also try running through older editions (say, OG 12 + verbal 1st or 2nd) for some new questions -- carcass 's rundown of those OG editions is available here. And if you completely exhaust the GMATPrep tests, you can download all of the GMATPrep verbal questions from carcass 's post here, as long as you promise to give the man some kudos.

Quote:
To give you a brief background information, I scored 730 (Q50/V38) on an official GMAT back in 2013. That score has expired and now I am trying to retake the GMAT to apply to business school hopefully this fall. I retook official GMAT's this summer and have canceled those scores because I am not happy with my scores.
Here's what I got in April and May this year (2019):

700 (Q49, V35, IR8) on April 24, 2019
720 (Q49, V40, IR7) on May 11, 2019
720 (Q49, V40, IR8) on May 28, 2019

From the ESR's as you can see below, it seems like my strengths and weaknesses vary from one test to another:
April 24 —> May 11 —> May 28
Sub-section rankings:
CR - 65th —> 94th —> 88th

RC - 88th —> 76th —> 60th

SC - 59th —> 81st —> 96th

Oh man, this is juicy. I see this sort of thing all the time with our students, but it doesn't cross my radar screen all that often on GMAT Club.

For starters, you'll always want to take those "question-level" subscores with a HUGE grain of salt. Your SC, CR, and RC scores are calculated using about 10 questions each, so they're incredibly sensitive. Think of it this way: if you took a national public opinion poll and surveyed just 10 people, how accurate do you think your poll would be? The same is true here: funny things can happen in a 10-question sample size.

That said, those swings aren't small, so there's definitely something going on there. My hunch is that you're broadly inconsistent in your approach to verbal questions, but that's a long conversation for another time and place. The good news is that your underlying skills are probably pretty darned good if you can get scores that high on occasion, so that's worth something.

Sorry that I don't have better news on SC, though. I hope this still helps a bit!
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YouTube LIVE verbal webinars: all videos by topic

SC articles & resources: How to go from great (760) to incredible (780) on GMAT SC | That "-ing" Word Probably Isn't a Verb | That "-ed" Word Might Not Be a Verb, Either | No-BS Guide to GMAT Idioms | "Being" is not the enemy | WTF is "that" doing in my sentence?

RC, CR, and other articles & resources: All GMAT Ninja articles on GMAT Club | Using LSAT for GMAT CR & RC |7 reasons why your actual GMAT scores don't match your practice test scores | How to get 4 additional "fake" GMAT Prep tests for \$29.99 | Time management on verbal

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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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01 Jun 2019, 10:21
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Why wasn't I aware of this? I am pro LSAT all the way! *No bias* *No B.S.* *Just J.D.*
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Re: Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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01 Jun 2019, 14:40
1
1
1
Why wasn't I aware of this? I am pro LSAT all the way! *No bias* *No B.S.* *Just J.D.*

Aw man, I thought that all moderators were required to read and memorize all of the articles in my ludicrously bloated forum signature!

For anybody out there who ends up doing a lot of the LSAT CR questions here on GMAT Club, nightblade354 is one of the guys who does a killer job of breaking those down. So I might be ruining his life here, but he's a good guy to tag in whenever you have questions on LSAT stuff.
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Beginners' guides to GMAT verbal: RC | CR | SC

YouTube LIVE verbal webinars: all videos by topic

SC articles & resources: How to go from great (760) to incredible (780) on GMAT SC | That "-ing" Word Probably Isn't a Verb | That "-ed" Word Might Not Be a Verb, Either | No-BS Guide to GMAT Idioms | "Being" is not the enemy | WTF is "that" doing in my sentence?

RC, CR, and other articles & resources: All GMAT Ninja articles on GMAT Club | Using LSAT for GMAT CR & RC |7 reasons why your actual GMAT scores don't match your practice test scores | How to get 4 additional "fake" GMAT Prep tests for \$29.99 | Time management on verbal

SC & CR Questions of the Day (QOTDs), featuring expert explanations: All QOTDs | Subscribe via email | RSS

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Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR  [#permalink]

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01 Jun 2019, 21:49
1
GMATNinja, RE:"you could also try running through older editions (say, OG 12 + verbal 1st or 2nd) for some new questions -- carcass 's rundown of those OG editions is available here. And if you completely exhaust the GMATPrep tests, you can download all of the GMATPrep verbal questions from carcass 's post here, as long as you promise to give the man some kudos."

I did not know that older editions of OG would have questions that are not included in the newer OG editions. I erroneously thought that older OGs ALWAYS constitute subsets of newer OG editions; but I am learning that I was wrong. Thank you once again!
Experts’ Topic of the Week, 5/1/17: using LSAT for GMAT RC & CR   [#permalink] 01 Jun 2019, 21:49

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