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# Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's

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Intern
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Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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27 Sep 2012, 12:47
Hi,
I am applying to Canadian schools .
Can someone please give an Ivey- Rotman - Queen's smackdown ,their strengths,cost,ROI,program value,international recognition.
Thank you

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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12 Oct 2012, 12:30
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We feature an MBA program every Monday on our FB page to help students learn which program is the right fit. You can also check out the school profiles portion of our website which highlights Canadian MBA programs like Ivey, Rotman, and Queen's. Best of luck with your applications!

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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21 Oct 2012, 00:38
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I can answer the last part of your question. in Asia, no one knows about Ivey or Queens but almost everyone know Toronto University, having said that I would definitely choose Rotman for the brand name and without a second thought - believe me, it is all about the brand!

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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21 Oct 2012, 10:00
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To be fair, international recognition applies to University of Toronto not Rotman. Being from Asia myself, I would say that the people there are more familiar with the Schulich brand than Rotman. In truth, the Rotman name itself doesn't carry much cachet, you'll find many Rotman students introducing them self as U of T MBA students even in Canada because most people don't even know what Rotman is.

Ivey, Queen - 1 year program, located in hick town Ontario and their recognition is regional.
Rotman - 2 years program, located in downtown Toronto. Rotman brand is regional but U of T brand is international.

For international applicants, I would recommend choosing Rotman over Ivey or Queen just because Rotman is located in Toronto. People underestimate how boring the small hick towns in Ontario are until they've spent a few days there and realize that there is nothing to do and nothing going on to engage their minds. Most of the students that goes to Western and Queen just turn to alcohol to kill the boredom and end up doing stupid stuff http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2 ... -campuses/

Toronto on the other hand is an amazing multicultural international city. The ethnic neighborhoods will provide cushions for those having culture shock and the option for international food is unmatched anywhere.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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21 Oct 2012, 11:56
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To be fair, international recognition applies to University of Toronto not Rotman. Being from Asia myself, I would say that the people there are more familiar with the Schulich brand than Rotman. In truth, the Rotman name itself doesn't carry much cachet, you'll find many Rotman students introducing them self as U of T MBA students even in Canada because most people don't even know what Rotman is.

Ivey, Queen - 1 year program, located in hick town Ontario and their recognition is regional.
Rotman - 2 years program, located in downtown Toronto. Rotman brand is regional but U of T brand is international.

For international applicants, I would recommend choosing Rotman over Ivey or Queen just because Rotman is located in Toronto. People underestimate how boring the small hick towns in Ontario are until they've spent a few days there and realize that there is nothing to do and nothing going on to engage their minds. Most of the students that goes to Western and Queen just turn to alcohol to kill the boredom and end up doing stupid stuff http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2 ... -campuses/

Toronto on the other hand is an amazing multicultural international city. The ethnic neighborhoods will provide cushions for those having culture shock and the option for international food is unmatched anywhere.

exactly, the same applies to vast majority of business schools when it comes to Asia, for instance no one knows Sloan or Haas but everyone including people living in desert of Saudi Arabia know MIT and Berkeley, so to speak.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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25 Oct 2012, 18:26
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Sorry, I don't normally post here anymore, but I felt compelled to reply. Are you going to be working in Canada? As someone who lives here and went through the process you're going through, I just wanted to contribute.

Ivey is the only Canadian business school that I applied to. I did pretty well on my gmat (740) and have pretty decent work experience so I'm not posting from a student who scraped into Ivey and nowhere else. It was historically ALWAYS the best business school in Canada ranked in the top 15 in the world (but not recently), certainly the oldest (in fact it is the oldest out of any school outside the US). In the past 10 years, Rotman, as result of its superstar dean, has come a long way and is very good in finance. That being said, I'm only interested in finance and I came to Ivey. Last year, we placed 9 investment bankers out of a class of 140 (and only 20 of whom applied to investment banking) which is still much higher per capita than Rotman. This year, Rotman did very well in September and I believe they placed 7. We did quite miserably actually, and it's because this year the markets suck and banks retained a lot of interns from summer who are almost all Rotman with a sprinkling of exceptional Queens and Schulich students. You can't do a summer internship at Ivey. If you are a career-switcher into Finance and the markets don't improve, I would STRONGLY recommend you also look at Rotman. That being said, Ivey's alum are unparalleled. No other school in Canada comes close to the Ivey alum and Ivey alum are also very engaged. I was able to email Managing Directors/Directors cold and they let me visit them and tour the trade floor. We also still dominate consulting in Canada.

Some will quote ranks to you, which is all very good. Ivey dropped a lot in the FT rankings but their methodology heavily weights salary increase. Compared to other schools, our candidates are slightly older and given it's a year program instead of two, our candidates have obviously considered opportunity costs in their decision. Logically and statistically, the self-selected population comes in with a higher income than average and still leaves with the highest income in Canada for any MBA school, but the percentage-increase isn't as great as a Rotman or Schulich. Believe me when I say, when a recruiter is sitting in front of you, he/she not browsing through FT rankings to see if he/she going to hire you.

Do not make your decision without doing a class visit and talking to the current students. Things will become much clearer, I promise. Please feel free to message me with any questions!

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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25 Oct 2012, 22:07
maroliv12 wrote:
Sorry, I don't normally post here anymore, but I felt compelled to reply. Are you going to be working in Canada? As someone who lives here and went through the process you're going through, I just wanted to contribute.

Ivey is the only Canadian business school that I applied to. I did pretty well on my gmat (740) and have pretty decent work experience so I'm not posting from a student who scraped into Ivey and nowhere else. It was historically ALWAYS the best business school in Canada ranked in the top 15 in the world (but not recently), certainly the oldest (in fact it is the oldest out of any school outside the US). In the past 10 years, Rotman, as result of its superstar dean, has come a long way and is very good in finance. That being said, I'm only interested in finance and I came to Ivey. Last year, we placed 9 investment bankers out of a class of 140 (and only 20 of whom applied to investment banking) which is still much higher per capita than Rotman. This year, Rotman did very well in September and I believe they placed 7. We did quite miserably actually, and it's because this year the markets suck and banks retained a lot of interns from summer who are almost all Rotman with a sprinkling of exceptional Queens and Schulich students. You can't do a summer internship at Ivey. If you are a career-switcher into Finance and the markets don't improve, I would STRONGLY recommend you also look at Rotman. That being said, Ivey's alum are unparalleled. No other school in Canada comes close to the Ivey alum and Ivey alum are also very engaged. I was able to email Managing Directors/Directors cold and they let me visit them and tour the trade floor. We also still dominate consulting in Canada.

Some will quote ranks to you, which is all very good. Ivey dropped a lot in the FT rankings but their methodology heavily weights salary increase. Compared to other schools, our candidates are slightly older and given it's a year program instead of two, our candidates have obviously considered opportunity costs in their decision. Logically and statistically, the self-selected population comes in with a higher income than average and still leaves with the highest income in Canada for any MBA school, but the percentage-increase isn't as great as a Rotman or Schulich. Believe me when I say, when a recruiter is sitting in front of you, he/she not browsing through FT rankings to see if he/she going to hire you.

Do not make your decision without doing a class visit and talking to the current students. Things will become much clearer, I promise. Please feel free to message me with any questions!

I entirely agree with every word you said, and I can say it loudly: If you are planning to stay in Canada go to Ivey with your eyes closed.

However, here is the other side of the coin, If you are from Asia or Middle East and you're going to Canada to get MBA then come back to work in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, or Singapore then you should choose a school or university that has international reputation - for instance, if you say you have MBA from Ivey people here would think that you're talking about Ivy League in the US, and If you say West Ontario people would understand that you are talking about some places in Canada but will never figure out that this is name of university!

On the other hand, saying that you got your degree from UoT or McGill will open doors for you regardless of the ranking of the business school. That's why it is always important to consider the name of parent university when you plan to go outside.

The same applies on US business schools, for instance people who have their MBA from Georgetown University which its business school has always been ranked as second tier will get jobs easier than their Chicago Booth counterparts.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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26 Oct 2012, 05:33
warrak2000 wrote:
maroliv12 wrote:
Sorry, I don't normally post here anymore, but I felt compelled to reply. Are you going to be working in Canada? As someone who lives here and went through the process you're going through, I just wanted to contribute.

Ivey is the only Canadian business school that I applied to. I did pretty well on my gmat (740) and have pretty decent work experience so I'm not posting from a student who scraped into Ivey and nowhere else. It was historically ALWAYS the best business school in Canada ranked in the top 15 in the world (but not recently), certainly the oldest (in fact it is the oldest out of any school outside the US). In the past 10 years, Rotman, as result of its superstar dean, has come a long way and is very good in finance. That being said, I'm only interested in finance and I came to Ivey. Last year, we placed 9 investment bankers out of a class of 140 (and only 20 of whom applied to investment banking) which is still much higher per capita than Rotman. This year, Rotman did very well in September and I believe they placed 7. We did quite miserably actually, and it's because this year the markets suck and banks retained a lot of interns from summer who are almost all Rotman with a sprinkling of exceptional Queens and Schulich students. You can't do a summer internship at Ivey. If you are a career-switcher into Finance and the markets don't improve, I would STRONGLY recommend you also look at Rotman. That being said, Ivey's alum are unparalleled. No other school in Canada comes close to the Ivey alum and Ivey alum are also very engaged. I was able to email Managing Directors/Directors cold and they let me visit them and tour the trade floor. We also still dominate consulting in Canada.

Some will quote ranks to you, which is all very good. Ivey dropped a lot in the FT rankings but their methodology heavily weights salary increase. Compared to other schools, our candidates are slightly older and given it's a year program instead of two, our candidates have obviously considered opportunity costs in their decision. Logically and statistically, the self-selected population comes in with a higher income than average and still leaves with the highest income in Canada for any MBA school, but the percentage-increase isn't as great as a Rotman or Schulich. Believe me when I say, when a recruiter is sitting in front of you, he/she not browsing through FT rankings to see if he/she going to hire you.

Do not make your decision without doing a class visit and talking to the current students. Things will become much clearer, I promise. Please feel free to message me with any questions!

I entirely agree with every word you said, and I can say it loudly: If you are planning to stay in Canada go to Ivey with your eyes closed.

However, here is the other side of the coin, If you are from Asia or Middle East and you're going to Canada to get MBA then come back to work in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, or Singapore then you should choose a school or university that has international reputation - for instance, if you say you have MBA from Ivey people here would think that you're talking about Ivy League in the US, and If you say West Ontario people would understand that you are talking about some places in Canada but will never figure out that this is name of university!

On the other hand, saying that you got your degree from UoT or McGill will open doors for you regardless of the ranking of the business school. That's why it is always important to consider the name of parent university when you plan to go outside.

The same applies on US business schools, for instance people who have their MBA from Georgetown University which its business school has always been ranked as second tier will get jobs easier than their Chicago Booth counterparts.

Hi, yeah so I wouldn't know too well about Asia or the Middle East, but I find what you say completely believable. I think outside of Hong Kong, where there's also an Ivey school and people in Finance or Consulting in the US (and not even a large proportion of that), most people wouldn't know what Ivey is. Ivey undergrads place really well in the US, so that's the only reason Ivey is somewhat known in finance circles there. Even then, not really. Actually, for people who aren't in Finance or Consulting in Canada, they probably know Rotman better too because its U of T, but for those in the know, Ivey has always been the best b-school in Canada. So if the original poster is not staying in Canada, I'd recommend going to a US b-school. lol

Also, watch out for Schulich. They offer you a spot without interviews if your stats are good- if you see what kind of adverse selection occurs when that happens, you'd be horrified. Being in Toronto is a benefit, but the Ivey program is very small and tight, so we do everything together. Also, the parents school, Western, has some of the most unbelievably attractive people in the country. Rotman is much more of a commuter school, and you won't be as tight. Schulich is located in the area in Toronto with the highest rate of murders and rape, so consider that as well.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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26 Oct 2012, 15:26
maroliv12 wrote:
Hi, yeah so I wouldn't know too well about Asia or the Middle East, but I find what you say completely believable. I think outside of Hong Kong, where there's also an Ivey school and people in Finance or Consulting in the US (and not even a large proportion of that), most people wouldn't know what Ivey is. Ivey undergrads place really well in the US, so that's the only reason Ivey is somewhat known in finance circles there. Even then, not really. Actually, for people who aren't in Finance or Consulting in Canada, they probably know Rotman better too because its U of T, but for those in the know, Ivey has always been the best b-school in Canada. So if the original poster is not staying in Canada, I'd recommend going to a US b-school. lol

Also, watch out for Schulich. They offer you a spot without interviews if your stats are good- if you see what kind of adverse selection occurs when that happens, you'd be horrified. Being in Toronto is a benefit, but the Ivey program is very small and tight, so we do everything together. Also, the parents school, Western, has some of the most unbelievably attractive people in the country. Rotman is much more of a commuter school, and you won't be as tight. Schulich is located in the area in Toronto with the highest rate of murders and rape, so consider that as well.

maroliv12, you do bring up some interesting points. Western, by virtue of being the top party school in Canada tends to attract the party types to their programs, so there are definitely some good looking people at Western. No doubt, Ivey students do very well in Finance, but I do feel that there's more to a business education than just learning how to be an investment banker and these programs should be judge more as a whole rather than through a niche sector.

Schulich wasn’t a program that the TS is considering but since it’s mentioned, I’m obligated to dispel a couple of myths associated with the school.

First, the area around Schulich does not have the highest rate of murder in Toronto. Everyone think that but it simply isn’t true when you take a look at the data. http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/homicide2012/ The area to the South West of the school, affectionately known as “Jane and Finch” does have a sizable immigrant population so the area is poorer compared to the rest of the city, but it is still quite safe. I’ve walked about the area many times at night without problem. Toronto is one of the safest city in the world and calling area around Schulich dangerous is akin to calling Donald Trump poor because he’s on the lower end of the billionaires net worth chart.

Second, Schulich interview all international applicants, and usually give domestic applicants a free pass. While the admission department is lazy in this regard, I really do think that admission interviews, especially with the Canadian business schools, are a bit of a horse and pony show. Just about all the interviewees get in and the values of these “interviews” are questionable. Benchmarking with different graduate programs such as law shows that law schools, including the top institutions such as Yale and U of T law schools, refuses to participate in this charade and doesn’t do admission interviews. I think calling the results of Schulich not interviewing domestic applicants as “horrifying” is a bit of fear mongering especially since you don’t attend the school and don’t have firsthand account of the results.

With that being said, I do think highly of Ivey and Queen’s MBA program. Their 1 year programs are certainly appealing for those who want to minimize opportunity cost. However, I am of the opinion that the business educations from these 3 programs are comparable and the differences are minute (7 placements vs 9 in IB for example). Ivey, Rotman and Queen are all respectable program so what separated them apart for me is their location. It is true that being in a big city like Toronto, people have a lot of options in terms of living location, cultural and entertainment so they don't stick as close to their classmates. I think this is a good thing. I rather have the freedom to chose than be forced to stick with my classmates because there isn't any alternative.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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26 Oct 2012, 18:07
Hi, yes I rant about Schulich sometimes and I'm quite biased against it which is my fault. Fair play about the location. But York does have an issue with rape, it happens multiple times a year, and it's occurred twice this year already if I'm not mistaken. Seeing as I'm a fairly-sized bloke, I wouldn't feel unsafe either BUT I wouldn't want my gf walking that area at night. The placement differences I have to contest. It's Ivey and Rotman and then everything else is quite a distance away. If you look at the most competitive positions its Ivey and Rotman who place the highest and it's really quite a margin to the next school. I think they're all great programs, you're right. The only thing is, the lecture-based method is quite boring to me...I know classmates who were deciding between Queens and Ivey and said they realized they couldn't go to Queens after sitting through a lecture. Obviously, some people will be fine with a lecture and some people won't like a case-based environment because participation is such a big component of your grade. But again to the OP, do a class visit and talk to current students. That's really your best insight.

Edit: I also wanted to add, if you don't 'fit in' at Ivey, you may be in for a miserable time because the downside is the social scene there is likely going to be with your classmates and not external friends, given it's in London, not Toronto. Ivey does a pretty good job of selecting 'fit' so they do some of the work for you. But it's pretty cultish and it can be a help because Ivey interviewers are quite biased towards Ivey. It's bad because they don't always hold other schools in the same regard. I actually found Rotman guys very nice-I networked with a couple Rotman people and despite never having met me before, they agreed to meet me for coffee. I don't know if that would swing with an Ivey guy unless it was another Ivey guy he was meeting. Ivey values polish of manner as highly as academics. There are people with great academics who get turned away and there are people with dubious academics that get in. The amount of immigrants there that sound caucasian is unparalleled, take that how you will

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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28 Oct 2012, 22:31
As someone who graduated from Schulich last year, I can attest to the area's reputation.

During the year and a half I was attending classes at York (I did my last semester at ESSEC), there were three murders on campus, a death threat given to university administration staff that caused the school to lock all doors for two months, several rapes, and tons of petty crime like beatings in the two campus pubs and muggings in the hallways during broad daylight. There's a lot of homeless who wander the Schulich building, notably the library.

While it's certainly a little overdramafied by Torontonians, it is surely not a nice area but Canadian standards. It's dead. There's no subway there (although it's been built right now). Rez is old and ugly. It's also a commuter school and I do think that Ivey and Queen's offer a social life that neither Rotman or Schulich can attain. People aren't as tight in Schulich as they like to think. There are zero social clubs. It's hard to meet people at that school. If you are looking to socialize as opposed to 'network', I wouldn't recommend Schulich over a college town school.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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01 Nov 2012, 07:15
Hey Krussle, if i may ask, how did you search for a summer associateship go?

Another MBA candidate told me Schulich's summer internship placement rate is very poor. Any truth to that? Specifically, in the finance/banking area?

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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02 Nov 2012, 10:01
echelon99 wrote:
Hey Krussle, if i may ask, how did you search for a summer associateship go?

Another MBA candidate told me Schulich's summer internship placement rate is very poor. Any truth to that? Specifically, in the finance/banking area?

I think in general, summer internships are fewer and far between in Toronto as opposed to Boston, Silicon Valley, or New York, but most of the people searching for internships got one. All five of Canada's major banks recruit here for summer interns. The Big Four consulting firms came to school. Most CPGs recruit from Schulich. Because of Schulich's specialized programs, a lot of students opt for an internship in a non-traditional industry like the Arts or Real Estate.

In Canada, recruiting is much different from the USA. While most places will recruit, they recruit a meager amount in comparison to American counterparts. I did my internship at a large CPG that does a lot of recruiting, and they only took three new grads from all over Canada into marketing positions.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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02 Nov 2012, 23:38
krussell wrote:
echelon99 wrote:
Hey Krussle, if i may ask, how did you search for a summer associateship go?

Another MBA candidate told me Schulich's summer internship placement rate is very poor. Any truth to that? Specifically, in the finance/banking area?

I think in general, summer internships are fewer and far between in Toronto as opposed to Boston, Silicon Valley, or New York, but most of the people searching for internships got one. All five of Canada's major banks recruit here for summer interns. The Big Four consulting firms came to school. Most CPGs recruit from Schulich. Because of Schulich's specialized programs, a lot of students opt for an internship in a non-traditional industry like the Arts or Real Estate.

In Canada, recruiting is much different from the USA. While most places will recruit, they recruit a meager amount in comparison to American counterparts. I did my internship at a large CPG that does a lot of recruiting, and they only took three new grads from all over Canada into marketing positions.

that's nice to know. although Schulich never quote their summer placement rates in CDC reports. Rotman, Ivey, Queens and McGill always show their internship stats. Even Sauder does.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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24 Dec 2012, 00:06
Guys,

Thanks for the informative insight you all have provided. But I can't see any comments about Queens. I've already got an admit into their 1 year program and I still have the option of applying to Ivey. Please suggest.

P.S.: I talked to few alums and current students of Queens and they are saying that there is not much of difference between the two schools in terms of quality of education, placements etc except the difference of approach (case studies only in Ivey and mix of case studies and lectures in Queens)

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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24 Dec 2012, 11:11
alwaysursgd wrote:
Guys,

Thanks for the informative insight you all have provided. But I can't see any comments about Queens. I've already got an admit into their 1 year program and I still have the option of applying to Ivey. Please suggest.

P.S.: I talked to few alums and current students of Queens and they are saying that there is not much of difference between the two schools in terms of quality of education, placements etc except the difference of approach (case studies only in Ivey and mix of case studies and lectures in Queens)

First, don't expect the students at Queens to advise you to apply to Ivey

Nevertheless, both schools are considered as Elite, however Ivey always has an edge over other Canadian business schools.

In the latest QS report - the employer index for Queen's was 71.3 while Ivey got 94 which is same index as Michigan Ross. With that being said the reputation of Ivey among employers is way higher than Queen's.

Good luck,

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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25 Dec 2012, 11:54
Very interesting discussion, I was wondering if anyone can provide insight into other business schools in Toronto, such as Ryerson and Wilfrid Laurier. I know they are not as well known as Ivy, Rotman, and Schulich but I might end up choosing other than the big Three for couple of reasons, one being tuition fee.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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25 Dec 2012, 13:13
kevinfa wrote:
Very interesting discussion, I was wondering if anyone can provide insight into other business schools in Toronto, such as Ryerson and Wilfrid Laurier. I know they are not as well known as Ivy, Rotman, and Schulich but I might end up choosing other than the big Three for couple of reasons, one being tuition fee.

As you said, both universities are not known for their MBA programs - So, don't expect a lot - other than the certificate!

Just to answer your question, I would choose Ted Rogers School of Management over Wilfrid just for it's location on the Bay Street near Toronto financial district, although Wilfrid Laurier has a better reputation as University than Ryerson.

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WE: Engineering (Education)
Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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25 Dec 2012, 13:36
kevinfa wrote:
Very interesting discussion, I was wondering if anyone can provide insight into other business schools in Toronto, such as Ryerson and Wilfrid Laurier. I know they are not as well known as Ivy, Rotman, and Schulich but I might end up choosing other than the big Three for couple of reasons, one being tuition fee.

Ivy and Laurier aren't really in Toronto, Ivy main campus is in London, Ontario and Laurier main campus is in Waterloo, Ontario. These two school have a small satellite location in Toronto but calling them Toronto school is a gross exaggeration.

Ryerson is located in down town Toronto but I would not recommend going there. The program is new and the school would let a monkey in if it could pay tuition. Coupled that with Ryerson's generally negative reputation and you have a pretty much useless degree upon graduation. This might sound harsh but the truth is, an MBA has steadily losing it's value due to an oversupply in Canada. Because of that, where you get your MBA is now very important. Tuitions for Ryerson and Laurier are cheap because their brand has very little value. You get what you paid for in this case.

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's [#permalink]

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25 Dec 2012, 16:59

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Re: Ivey vs Rotman vs Queen's   [#permalink] 25 Dec 2012, 16:59

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