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Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind

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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 11 Dec 2012, 22:21
daagh wrote:
The first split is going to be on redundancy. Regain and again do not go together. So, let’s remove A, B and D.
Second, between C and E, E distorts the meaning saying that the composer has declined, and never regained his popularity, especially after death. Can a dead person decline and regain? But the intended meaning is that the reputation declines and never regains its earlier status. Hence C.


Indeed very compact and solid analysis 'daagh'...Kudos... :)
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 12 Dec 2012, 00:10
Thanks e-GMAT/Souvik for wonderful explanations.

But guys I've a bit confusion over option B and C :

@souvik,you mentioned that B is incorrect because it uses redundant construction “regains its status again”. Very true.
Apart from this error, I think another discrepancy in this option B is when we try to fit this option with the rest of the sentence,it doesn't get to fine as 'whose' doesn't get the subject it refers to.Had the original sentence used ',' (comma) after 'the kind of composer' (i.e. the kind of composer,who receives popular acclaim while living,whose...) then the first part of the whole sentence would have been proper.This same goes for 'C' also I guess.
Moreover the B uses 'regain'-'again'...It's redundant. But,I think the another redundancy goes with C also... i.e. 'regains its former status'. One will regain ONLY something that one was already associated with some time in the past.. hence, something which is 'former'.' So don't you think use of 'former' is NOT required with 'regain' hence redundant.


Please help me understand this guys...

e-GMAT/Souvik ,if you can come with the resolution.
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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Hi debayan,

You ask very valid questions. Let me give answer to both your questions here.

Choice B: whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again.

There is no problem with the reference of “whose” here. Just like “who”, “whose” also refers to “the kind of composer”. Look at this simple sentence:

The man with white hat is my uncle who has three yachts, and whose brewery is famous nationwide.

In the very same, in the official choice B, “whose” clearly refers to “the kind of composer” without any ambiguity. Now “who” is a relative pronoun that may be preceded by a comma or may not be preceded by one. Presence of comma does not affect its modification or of any other parallel entity in the list.

However, there is something else happening in Choice B. Notice that the subject “reputation” has two verbs “declines” and “regains”. These two verbs are correctly joined by “and”. This construction makes entire choice be the second entity in the parallel list, the first being “who often receives…”. Now since there are just two entities in the list per choice B, there should be a marker between the two entities, i. e. before “whose”. But there is no marker. This is another error.

Now let’s take a look at the use “former” in choice C: but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status

Use of former suggests that after death, certain kind of composer does not enjoy that level of popularity that he/she enjoyed while alive. It’s not that he/she loses all the popularity. He/ she retains some popularity but not that popularity that he/she enjoyed when he/she was alive.

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 15 Dec 2012, 10:42
Hi Shraddha,
Thanks for this great analysis again...

It's clear to me now..and I must say that it was a really critical one. It would be great if you can post some of these for the club..

On the basis of the last paragraph of your reply above, can I consider that there is no hard and fast rule that 'regain' will never go with 'former' unlike 'regain'-'again'...?And the use of 'regain'-'former' is broadly based on the context..!

Please share your thoughts..!
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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I am not clear about the referent of "Its". Pls help me in this regard. Thanks
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New post 04 Sep 2013, 21:37
pau.sabria wrote:
OA is C.

Thanks to you all.

However, official explanation says:

(B) The two clauses are not parallel, lack of coordinating conjunction, and do not describe the same thing; reduntant again.

(C) Correct. This sentence presents the proper logic while maintaining parallel structure and consistent verb tense.

Can anybody explain me why (B) is not describing the same thing and (C) is?


"Do not describe the same thing" refers to the fact that the two clauses are joined by "and" which is a coordinating conjunction, but the two clauses do not describe two "situations"/actions which are similiar, but rather different at least in time... so the two clauses need a subordinate conj...

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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 12 Feb 2014, 02:38
Hi,
Here we are looking for parallelism between 'receives' and 'reputation declines and regains'.
Rule of FANBOYS says : IC , FANBOY , IC
here in correct choice C there is no IC in second clause. C choice is : 'but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status.'
here structure is :
Joachim....living(IC) ,But (FANBOY) whose...status(DC).
here whose indicates DC clause,but we need a IC. Then how it is correct?
Due to this I feel B is better though it has regain and again in same sentence which can be an error.
Please highlight.

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Hi Karan,

You are looking for three parallel items on a single list, but according to the meaning of the sentence, the three items can't be part of the same list, because the first item refers to the composer whereas the next two items refer to the composer's reputation. So, it doesn't make logical sense to place all three as part of the same list, and we need two separate clauses here. (Also, even if we take all three items to be part of a single list, we still can't identify option B as correct because the third item is not an IC even in option B. In this option, the last item is "never regains", so there's no subject that can be parallel to "who" and "whose reputation".)

So, as option C correctly shows, we need the conjunction "but" to create a new clause that is about the composer's reputation (not the composer). Then, we need "and" to join the verbs "declines" and "regains".

So, option C is fine. Note that the 'comma + conjunction + independent clause' structure is not always applicable, so follow the logic and the intended meaning of the sentence at all times.

I hope this helps!

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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 12 Feb 2014, 10:52
egmat wrote:
Hi Karan,

You are looking for three parallel items on a single list, but according to the meaning of the sentence, the three items can't be part of the same list, because the first item refers to the composer whereas the next two items refer to the composer's reputation. So, it doesn't make logical sense to place all three as part of the same list, and we need two separate clauses here. (Also, even if we take all three items to be part of a single list, we still can't identify option B as correct because the third item is not an IC even in option B. In this option, the last item is "never regains", so there's no subject that can be parallel to "who" and "whose reputation".)

So, as option C correctly shows, we need the conjunction "but" to create a new clause that is about the composer's reputation (not the composer). Then, we need "and" to join the verbs "declines" and "regains".

So, option C is fine. Note that the 'comma + conjunction + independent clause' structure is not always applicable, so follow the logic and the intended meaning of the sentence at all times.

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Meghna



Thanks Meghna. for explanation ..

If option B is stated in such manner:
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living and whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status ..

Is this sentence right ..

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New post 12 Feb 2014, 11:08
rahultripathi2005 wrote:
Thanks Meghna. for explanation ..

If option B is stated in such manner:
Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living and whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status ..

Is this sentence right ..


You're welcome. :-)

This version is better than the existing option, but the contrast between the acclaim and the decline in popularity is better expressed through "but" rather than "and".

Regards,
Meghna
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 11 Apr 2014, 03:45
I crossed C off the list because I don't understand how a reputation can regain a status. A reputation can be regained by an object, but how does a reputation regain status. In my mind it is not an object that can 'do' anything.

Is Joachim Raff's reputation also going to take a dog for a walk? Perhaps it can do my dishes.

I didn't like choice A, with 'regains popularity again' repeating the 'again' - however I felt that was less of an issue than reputation regaining a status.

Frustrated with this question and my confusion.

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New post 26 Apr 2014, 09:29
pau.sabria wrote:
OA is C.

Thanks to you all.

However, official explanation says:

(B) The two clauses are not parallel, lack of coordinating conjunction, and do not describe the same thing; reduntant again.

(C) Correct. This sentence presents the proper logic while maintaining parallel structure and consistent verb tense.

Can anybody explain me why (B) is not describing the same thing and (C) is?


B is redundant.

regains its status again
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 26 Apr 2014, 22:36
what is the question Number in OG13?
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 28 Apr 2014, 09:35
honchos wrote:
what is the question Number in OG13?

I checked it is question 137.

For B, the explanation says: "The two clauses are not parallel".

Can someone explain what it means :roll:. Which two clauses are not parallel and why?

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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 28 Apr 2014, 14:31
VerbalHow wrote:
honchos wrote:
what is the question Number in OG13?

I checked it is question 137.

For B, the explanation says: "The two clauses are not parallel".

Can someone explain what it means :roll:. Which two clauses are not parallel and why?


Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living.

often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again.

The above are two clause in which second is Dependent clause.

However in C the two clauses are

Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind of composer who receives popular acclaim while living.
but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status


Both of the above two clause are Independent Clauses and they are connected properly by the use of FANBOYS.

IC, FANBOYS, IC

Here it is

IC, but IC

IC stands for independent clause.
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 28 Apr 2014, 21:19
honchos wrote:
The above are two clause in which second is Dependent clause.

Thanks can you please explain this in a bit more detail.

So does that mean that an independent clause and a dependent clause are not parallel to each other? So, whenever we see an independent clause and a dependent clause would the sentence be wrong?

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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 30 Apr 2014, 04:57
This is number 137 in OG 13. Here's a little hint...on many of these OG questions, you can copy the sentence and run a Google search and it will often give you a site with the question number (here it actually brought up the OG from Google books for me).

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Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 11 Sep 2014, 17:14
monirjewel wrote:
I am not clear about the referent of "Its". Pls help me in this regard. Thanks


I was thinking the same thing! I eliminated B because I thought "its" was a little ambiguous, but then I saw the same pronoun used in C and since other answer choices had more obvious errors, I picked C.

Would be thankful if someone would explain why "its" is correct in this sentence. reputation regained its status? Seems illogical.

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New post 17 Sep 2014, 10:55
bytatia wrote:
monirjewel wrote:
I am not clear about the referent of "Its". Pls help me in this regard. Thanks


I was thinking the same thing! I eliminated B because I thought "its" was a little ambiguous, but then I saw the same pronoun used in C and since other answer choices had more obvious errors, I picked C.

Would be thankful if someone would explain why "its" is correct in this sentence. reputation regained its status? Seems illogical.


Happy to help. Here the pronoun "its" is referring back to "reputation", the subject of this final, subordinate clause: "but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status." Thinking about the meaning, it's clear that the reputation is the thing that never regains status.

Be careful with calling pronouns ambiguous. The GMAT is tolerant of ambiguity, so just because you aren't sure what the pronoun is referring to, don't eliminate it.

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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind [#permalink]

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New post 18 Sep 2014, 10:55
A. often goes into decline after death, and never regains popularity again . This means that composer goes into decline after death. This is illogical.

(B) whose reputation declines after death and never regains its status again . Parallelism issue

C. but whose reputation declines after death and never regains its former status . This is correct answer. a certain kind of composer gains popularity when alive, but after death, his reputation declines and it never regains its previous status.

(D) who declines in reputation after death and who never regained popularity again . Meaning issue as with A.

(E) then has declined in reputation after death and never regained popularity . Parallelism and meaning
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Re: Joachim Raff and Giacomo Meyerbeer are examples of the kind   [#permalink] 18 Sep 2014, 10:55

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