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# Need all experts on this one

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VP
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 1367

Kudos [?]: 38 [0], given: 0

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13 Aug 2007, 15:12
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh

Brajesh: for Q1

which should qualify the noun preceeding it correct?

then why isnt it effects and not abuse here ?

is it 'cos of of?

Well, "Drug and Alcohol abuse" is singular so we need singular verb "costs".

- Brajesh

So are you saying that it is C ?

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Director
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 901

Kudos [?]: 112 [0], given: 0

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13 Aug 2007, 16:09
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh

Brajesh: for Q1

which should qualify the noun preceeding it correct?

then why isnt it effects and not abuse here ?

is it 'cos of of?

Well, "Drug and Alcohol abuse" is singular so we need singular verb "costs".

- Brajesh

So are you saying that it is C ?

No no...I am saying B is the right answer.

In B, cost is plural because we are talking about effects....
If we had talked about "Drug and Alcohol abuse" (Singular) then we would have used "costs" (plural).

- Brajesh

Kudos [?]: 112 [0], given: 0

VP
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 1367

Kudos [?]: 38 [0], given: 0

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13 Aug 2007, 21:20
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh

Brajesh: for Q1

which should qualify the noun preceeding it correct?

then why isnt it effects and not abuse here ?

is it 'cos of of?

Well, "Drug and Alcohol abuse" is singular so we need singular verb "costs".

- Brajesh

So are you saying that it is C ?

No no...I am saying B is the right answer.

In B, cost is plural because we are talking about effects....
If we had talked about "Drug and Alcohol abuse" (Singular) then we would have used "costs" (plural).

- Brajesh

OK let me reiterate my question.
Option B is as follows
significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, which already cost business

which is a relative pronoun which should modify only the noun that is preceding it. Correct?

abuse is a noun here so how can you say that which refers to effects which is a noun but far off from the relative pronoun?

I agree that the meaning gets distorted if the effects is not referred to by the rel. pronoun. But I think we cannot take it as a hard and fast rule that which refers to the noun that precedes it.

This Concept is teasing me

Kudos [?]: 38 [0], given: 0

Senior Manager
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 454

Kudos [?]: 8 [0], given: 0

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13 Aug 2007, 21:43
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh

Brajesh: for Q1

which should qualify the noun preceeding it correct?

then why isnt it effects and not abuse here ?

is it 'cos of of?

Well, "Drug and Alcohol abuse" is singular so we need singular verb "costs".

- Brajesh

So are you saying that it is C ?

No no...I am saying B is the right answer.

In B, cost is plural because we are talking about effects....
If we had talked about "Drug and Alcohol abuse" (Singular) then we would have used "costs" (plural).

- Brajesh

OK let me reiterate my question.
Option B is as follows
significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, which already cost business

which is a relative pronoun which should modify only the noun that is preceding it. Correct?

abuse is a noun here so how can you say that which refers to effects which is a noun but far off from the relative pronoun?

I agree that the meaning gets distorted if the effects is not referred to by the rel. pronoun. But I think we cannot take it as a hard and fast rule that which refers to the noun that precedes it.

This Concept is teasing me

The one thing I've noticed time and again is to use this rule to shorten the sentences before figuring out what the "which" refers to.

Always... I repeat... Always ignore the "of" part of the sentence first.

credits: MGMAT SC.

Once you do that, it will suddenly look simple.

Kudos [?]: 8 [0], given: 0

VP
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 1367

Kudos [?]: 38 [0], given: 0

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14 Aug 2007, 04:44
ioiio wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh

Brajesh: for Q1

which should qualify the noun preceeding it correct?

then why isnt it effects and not abuse here ?

is it 'cos of of?

Well, "Drug and Alcohol abuse" is singular so we need singular verb "costs".

- Brajesh

So are you saying that it is C ?

No no...I am saying B is the right answer.

In B, cost is plural because we are talking about effects....
If we had talked about "Drug and Alcohol abuse" (Singular) then we would have used "costs" (plural).

- Brajesh

OK let me reiterate my question.
Option B is as follows
significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, which already cost business

which is a relative pronoun which should modify only the noun that is preceding it. Correct?

abuse is a noun here so how can you say that which refers to effects which is a noun but far off from the relative pronoun?

I agree that the meaning gets distorted if the effects is not referred to by the rel. pronoun. But I think we cannot take it as a hard and fast rule that which refers to the noun that precedes it.

This Concept is teasing me

The one thing I've noticed time and again is to use this rule to shorten the sentences before figuring out what the "which" refers to.

Always... I repeat... Always ignore the "of" part of the sentence first.

credits: MGMAT SC.

Once you do that, it will suddenly look simple.

and thats where I am going to

Kudos [?]: 38 [0], given: 0

Director
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 901

Kudos [?]: 112 [0], given: 0

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14 Aug 2007, 05:47
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh

Brajesh: for Q1

which should qualify the noun preceeding it correct?

then why isnt it effects and not abuse here ?

is it 'cos of of?

Well, "Drug and Alcohol abuse" is singular so we need singular verb "costs".

- Brajesh

So are you saying that it is C ?

No no...I am saying B is the right answer.

In B, cost is plural because we are talking about effects....
If we had talked about "Drug and Alcohol abuse" (Singular) then we would have used "costs" (plural).

- Brajesh

OK let me reiterate my question.
Option B is as follows
significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, which already cost business

which is a relative pronoun which should modify only the noun that is preceding it. Correct?

abuse is a noun here so how can you say that which refers to effects which is a noun but far off from the relative pronoun?

I agree that the meaning gets distorted if the effects is not referred to by the rel. pronoun. But I think we cannot take it as a hard and fast rule that which refers to the noun that precedes it.

This Concept is teasing me

Yes, this is not a hard and fast rule....
I have seen many examples where "which" does not refer to the noun close to it but refer to one little far away.

I will send you few examples if I encounter any going forward.

- Brajesh

- Brajesh

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Director
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 734

Kudos [?]: 49 [0], given: 0

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14 Aug 2007, 12:13
Yes, this is not a hard and fast rule....
I have seen many examples where "which" does not refer to the noun close to it but refer to one little far away.

I will send you few examples if I encounter any going forward.

- Brajesh

- Brajesh

In almost all of the instances (say like 99%) which will refer to the noun preceeds it but I have seen few instances where this is not going to be the case and the question here is one of those few exceptions.

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CEO
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 2734

Kudos [?]: 1049 [0], given: 4

Location: New York City

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16 Aug 2007, 08:18
i think we need further elaboration... here are a few questions..

678. Television programs developed in conjunction with the marketing of toys, which was once prohibited by federal regulations, are thriving in the free market conditions permitted by the current Federal Communications Commission.
(A) Television programs developed in conjunction with the marketing of toys, which was once prohibited by federal regulations, are
(B) Television programs developed in conjunction with the marketing of toys, a practice that federal regulations once prohibited, is
(C) Developing television programs in conjunction with the marketing of toys, as once prohibited by federal regulations, is
(D) Federal regulations once prohibited developing television programs in conjunction with the marketing of toys, but they are
(E) Federal regulations once prohibited developing television programs in conjunction with the marketing of toys, but such programs are

734. The domesticated camel, which some scholars date around the twelfth century B.C., was the key to the development of the spice trade in the ancient world.
(A) The domesticated camel, which some scholars date
(B) The domesticated camel, which some scholars having thought to occur
(C) Domesticating the camel, dated by some scholars at
(D) The domestication of the camel, thought by some scholars to have occurred
(E) The camel’s domestication, dated by some scholars to have been

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CEO
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 2734

Kudos [?]: 1049 [0], given: 4

Location: New York City

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16 Aug 2007, 08:23
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

I agree with this. Which cannot modify a whole phrase....

As the price of gasoline rises, which makes substituting alcohol distilled from cereal grain attractive, the prices of bread and livestock feed are sure to increase.

BUT i am not sure how it applies to B because the effects (of X&Y) where effects/x/y are all nouns.

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CEO
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 2734

Kudos [?]: 1049 [0], given: 4

Location: New York City

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16 Aug 2007, 08:35
827. The science of economics, which for four decades was dominated by Keynesians, who at first stressed the government’s role in stimulating the economy, but who were ultimately led away from solutions based on government intervention.
(A) economics, which for four decades was
(B) economics that was to be
(C) economics, one which has, for four decades, been
(D) economics is one that for four decades has been
(E) economics, for four decades, is one that was

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Director
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 734

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16 Aug 2007, 09:04
678:
I was thinking C and E.
Elliminated A because ‘which’ is working on ‘toys’. It was the action or the practice which was prohibited not the toys.
B needed ‘are’. I found D weird.
I believe C changes the meaning. E is crisp and clean.

734:

(A practice/phenomenon/action) was the key to the development of the spice trade in the ancient world.

We need ‘domestication’ as that clearly describes the phenomenon/idea.

Left with D and E. In GMAT D form, in my experience, is always preferred rather than use of possessive.
D.

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CEO
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 2734

Kudos [?]: 1049 [0], given: 4

Location: New York City

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16 Aug 2007, 09:32
Here's an interesting one:

School integration plans have contributed to
(significant increases in housing integration), which, in turn, reduces
any future need for busing.

Which modifies the object of the preposition.

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Director
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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16 Aug 2007, 10:05
B and E for the original questions.

bmwhype2, can you post the entire question that came from?

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VP
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 1439

Kudos [?]: 218 [0], given: 13

Schools: Wharton (R2 - submitted); HBS (R2 - submitted); IIMA (admitted for 1 year PGPX)

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18 Aug 2007, 09:16
bmwhype2 wrote:
Here's an interesting one:

School integration plans have contributed to
(significant increases in housing integration), which, in turn, reduces
any future need for busing.

Which modifies the object of the preposition.

This explanation is reason enough for staying away from generalizations as pointed out by IOIIO. The fact that it doesn't help matters is a different thing.

Prepositional phrases are adjectival in nature; they can be eliminated when deciding SV agreements. In all other cases (such as when deciding noun pronoun agreements etc) we must not blindly remove them. As in BMW's example here - which is pointing to the object of the preposition

I am actually quite upset with MGMAT's SC study material. They have blatantly used the OG and Verbal guide - such heavy reliance on verbal guide is totally not warranted.

It's a complete waste of money.

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CEO
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
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22 Aug 2007, 14:59
1. Get me the box of chocolates, which are creme filled.
which refers to chocolates.

2. Executives and federal officials say that the use of crack and cocaine is growing rapidly among workers, significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, which already cost business more than \$100 billion a year.
which refers to "effects" ==> effects (of X&Y) ...cost business

so, i guess the rule of thumb is to first assume which refers to the closest noun (object of the preposition), make sure the context agrees, and if it doesnt, it refers to the noun instead of the object of the preposition.

anyone disagree?

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Manager
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 214

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Re: Need all experts on this one [#permalink]

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06 Oct 2011, 04:37
_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MGMAT 6 650 (51,31) on 31/8/11
MGMAT 1 670 (48,33) on 04/9/11
MGMAT 2 670 (47,34) on 07/9/11
MGMAT 3 680 (47,35) on 18/9/11
GMAT Prep1 680 ( 50, 31) on 10/11/11

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CR notes
http://gmatclub.com/forum/massive-collection-of-verbal-questions-sc-rc-and-cr-106195.html#p832142
http://gmatclub.com/forum/1001-ds-questions-file-106193.html#p832133
http://gmatclub.com/forum/gmat-prep-critical-reasoning-collection-106783.html
http://gmatclub.com/forum/how-to-get-6-0-awa-my-guide-64327.html
http://gmatclub.com/forum/how-to-get-6-0-awa-my-guide-64327.html?hilit=chineseburned

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Re: Need all experts on this one   [#permalink] 06 Oct 2011, 04:37

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