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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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I was asked in a PM to take on just this question, which everyone here seems to have answered incorrectly:

Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills, in reality these gregarious creatures live in stable groups that occupy the same territory for long periods.

(A) films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills
ANSWER: Correct idiom, correct construction.

(B) in films about the American West coyotes are depicted to be solitary animals that howl mournfully on the tops of distant hills
PROBLEM: "Depict to be" is incorrect, even though "in films" and "in reality" are very nicely paralleled.

(C) coyotes are depicted as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills in films about the American West
PROBLEM: This totally wrecks the meaning. Most of you seemed to interpret this correctly (using logic from previous answer choices). One possible meaning is that "coyotes are depicted as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills WHEN THEY ARE in films about the American West". But the way this reads is that "coyotes are depicted (BY SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE, SOMETIME) as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills in films about the American West". See? It's as if they're depicted elsewhere as if they were in films. The modifiers here are modifying all the wrong stuff.

(D) films about the American West depict coyotes as if they were solitary, mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills
PROBLEM: Depict "as if" is also incorrect. Also reversing "mournfully howling" is awkward (though probably not grammatically incorrect).

(E) films about the American West depict coyotes to be solitary and mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills
PROBLEM: Depict "to be" is wrong.

Voila!

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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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Hi Experts,
In this question , i am confused with option C. Can you please tell me why my reasoning is wrong,
In second IC , we have "these gregarious creature as a subject" so in first clause we should have " coyotes " as the subject but instead we have films as the subject
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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guptakashish02 wrote:
Hi Experts,
In this question , i am confused with option C. Can you please tell me why my reasoning is wrong,
In second IC , we have "these gregarious creature as a subject" so in first clause we should have " coyotes " as the subject but instead we have films as the subject

I'm not quite sure that I understand your question, but I'll give it a shot!

Are you suggesting that in a sentence with two clauses, the subjects of the two clauses must match? If so, that certainly isn't true. There's absolutely nothing with having two different subjects of two different clauses in the same sentence.

As others have mentioned above, there are all sorts of other problems with (C). For starters, the phrase "coyotes are depicted as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills in films..." seems to be saying that the coyotes actually howl in the films themselves. And that's not the point: the sentence is trying to say that the films depict the coyotes as howling mournfully in general -- not that the coyotes actually howl in the films. And there's no good reason to use passive voice in (C) when there's a better, more active alternative in (A).

I hope this helps!
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
Picked A first, then changed to C. Need a logical comparison. Coyotes as X in films and coyotes as Y in reality.
Although coyotes are depicted as X in films..... in reality, coyotes are Y... For A to work, the second part of the sentence needs to add a different type of movie to make the compare/contrast appropriate. Just my thinking!
Posted from my mobile device
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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Here's my take:

generis wrote:

Project SC Butler: Day 28 Sentence Correction (SC2)



Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills, in reality these gregarious creatures live in stable groups that occupy the same territory for long periods.


(A) films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills

(B) in films about the American West coyotes are depicted to be solitary animals that howl mournfully on the tops of distant hills

(C) coyotes are depicted as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills in films about the American West

(D) films about the American West depict coyotes as if they were solitary, mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills

(E) films about the American West depict coyotes to be solitary and mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills



Meaning Analysis


In films about American West, coyotes are shown as solitary animals who howl mournfully on the tops of distant hills. But in reality, they live in stable groups that occupy the same territory for long periods.

Correct Idiom


Depict "X" as "Y".

Wrong Answer elimination


Eliminate B and E as it uses incorrect idiom ("Depicted" X "to be" Y)
Eliminate D because of tense error. The non-underlined portion is in simple present tense. Option D says "as if they WERE" (simple past tense).
Also there are only 2 thoughts in option D (coyotes are solitary and mournfully howling animals) and therefore, no comma required.

Option C sounds enticing but there are 2 reasons why I am eliminating it --> 1) coyotes....on tops of distant hills in films about the American West. The "in films" seems to modify "distant hills". We want "films" to modify the entire clause from "coyotes" to "distant hills", and not just "distant hills".
2) The non-underlined part is in active voice, whereas option C seems to be passive voice. I reckon I'll need some expert insights here though. Is option C correct if we consider "voice"?

IMO, option A is the right answer because "on the tops of distant hills" correctly modifies the "solitary animals", and the idiomatic usage of "Depict X as Y" is correct.

Some thoughts on Option C would be nice.
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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gmatconqueror2018 wrote:
Picked A first, then changed to C. Need a logical comparison. Coyotes as X in films and coyotes as Y in reality.
Although coyotes are depicted as X in films..... in reality, coyotes are Y... For A to work, the second part of the sentence needs to add a different type of movie to make the compare/contrast appropriate. Just my thinking!
Posted from my mobile device


I would go with A on this one as C makes it sound like the coyotes howl something like;

"auuuuuuu Who shot the sheriff?" :-D

Regards,
Chris
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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gmatconqueror2018 wrote:
Picked A first, then changed to C. Need a logical comparison. Coyotes as X in films and coyotes as Y in reality.
Although coyotes are depicted as X in films..... in reality, coyotes are Y... For A to work, the second part of the sentence needs to add a different type of movie to make the compare/contrast appropriate. Just my thinking!
Posted from my mobile device


gmatconqueror2018
why you want different type of movie? first part states that cayotes are X, but in reality they are X. thats it :) What type of movie would you like to compare with :grin:

this is how i understand this sentence:

Although films about the American Wild Wild West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills, but in reality these creatues are party animals, and they are howling to join some party. :)


(A) films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills

this option looks totally fine:) here you emphasize that films DO depict coyotes as solitary animals, whereas option C

changes the meaning. In C it sounds as if coyotes are on the top of distant hills in films .... (but the "films" are the doers/ executors )


(C) coyotes are depicted as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills in films about the American West
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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Arro44 wrote:
as C makes it sound like the coyotes howl something like;

"auuuuuuu Who shot the sheriff?" :-D

Regards,
Chris

Arro44 , :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, whoever shot the sheriff did not shoot the deputy.
Thanks for the laugh.

These SC threads are exactly the kind that help people learn.
No kidding. Studies I have cited elsewhere demonstrate that humor is a potent catalyst of learning.

Among other tidbits, my threads include

-- drunken snails whose intoxication regrettably slows them down

-- and coyotes who howl iconic Bob Marley [reggae] songs, an image that
becomes irreverently funnier every time I think about Marley's voice.

I may have to start awarding kudos for hilarity. Laughter is good.
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
generis wrote:

Project SC Butler: Day 28 Sentence Correction (SC2)


For SC butler Questions Click Here


Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills, in reality these gregarious creatures live in stable groups that occupy the same territory for long periods.


(A) films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills

(B) in films about the American West coyotes are depicted to be solitary animals that howl mournfully on the tops of distant hills

(C) coyotes are depicted as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills in films about the American West

(D) films about the American West depict coyotes as if they were solitary, mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills

(E) films about the American West depict coyotes to be solitary and mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills

The best or excellent answers get kudos, which will be awarded after the answer is revealed.

PLEASE REWRITE THE SENTENCE IN YOUR OWN WORDS.


Though i understand why A is incorrect,but i have one query.In case of comparisons,say when we use like /unlike etc, we have to compare two similar entities,is it true for case of Although too.
See in case of C we are correctly comparing coyotes but in A
is it comparison of Films vs reality
or comparison of Coyotes.
Is this comparison necessary in Although,
If yes,then how is A correct?
If it is comparison of films vs reality so isn't in films required?
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@vanam

Quote:
Though i understand why A is incorrect, but i have one query. In case of comparisons, say when we use like /unlike etc, we have to compare two similar entities, is it true for case of Although too.

See in case of C we are correctly comparing coyotes but in A

is it comparison of Films vs reality
or comparison of Coyotes.
Is this comparison necessary in Although,
If yes, then how is A correct?
If it is comparison of films vs reality

so isn't in films required?

First thing is that 'although' is not a comparison marker; it is only a contrast marker. The question is not asking us to compare the coyotes of now with the coyotes of the past nor compare the perception of the films vs. the reality. The question only wants to emphasize that we are sometimes wrong in our judgment.

Therefore, in A, there is no need to use 'in films and maintain parallelism in line with 'in reality'. It may be also seen that if we insert the preposition 'in' for the sake of apparent parallelism, then the whole structure of the clause turns a fragment without a legal subject. If there is no subject then it is no more a clause. By the insertion of a preposition, we will be burning the house for the sake of killing a bug.

The observation that choice C correctly compares may not be true.

(C) Although coyotes are depicted as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills in films about the American West, in reality, these gregarious creatures live in stable groups that occupy the same territory for long periods

Can we say for sure, who is comparing the coyotes with what? There is no answer.

In addition, one clause is in passive voice and the other is in the active voice. In other words, can we justify the use of passive voice for the subordinate clause? Are there no other genuine means of rewriting that clause in a more forthright and dynamic active voice? This shift of voice is a grave error as far as parallelism goes.
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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Quote:
D)films about the American West depict coyotes as if they were solitary, mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills


Let me delve into two aspects of this choice.

Point 1.
Please note that the use of "as they were" is not just a past tense. This is a special kind of past subjunctive, using the past tense verb 'were' instead of the normal 'are'.

Subjunctive mood sentences are special types of sentences, which violate the normal rules that apply to the subject-verb agreement in number and tense but are still considered grammatical. In the case of the past subjunctive, the grammatical form of the verb will be - I were, you were, he were, and they were- instead of the - I was, you were, he was or they were - forms.
Correct Examples:
The HOD thinks as if the staff were his errand boys
Some peons behave as though they were the GMs of the company.
Kusela spends as if he were Bill Gates.

We can note the differential but grammatically correct use of the present tense and the past tense within the same clause. , thanks to the past subjunctive mood.

Point 2. Reg: coordinate adjectives.
Co-ordinate adjectives are so called because they are parallel elements. Each of the coordinate adjectives modifies the common noun with equal weight. They can be seamlessly either separated by a comma between them or joined with a coordinate conjunction such as 'and'. In addition, one can exchange the order of the adjectives without loss of meaning.

Even if we say -- solitary, mournfully howling animals -- as --mournfully howling, solitary animals -- the meaning stays the same. Therefore, the takeaway is that one doesn't have to split hears whether there has to be an 'and' between these adjectives, and rest assured that a comma between the coordinate adjectives is good enough, a rare case of where a comma equals a coordinate conjunction

This not an opportune time to go into another diametrical contrast concept known as cumulative adjectives which are far more meaning-based. Good Luck

Originally posted by daagh on 06 Dec 2018, 10:32.
Last edited by daagh on 06 Dec 2018, 23:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
"Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills, in reality these gregarious creatures live in stable groups that occupy the same territory for long periods."

Could someone clarify what does 'that' in the non-underlined portion refer to? My understanding is that 'that' can only refer back to singular and not plural words.
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
Thanks again, AndrewN - this is very helpful.

AndrewN wrote:
davidbeckham wrote:
"Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills, in reality these gregarious creatures live in stable groups that occupy the same territory for long periods."

Could someone clarify what does 'that' in the non-underlined portion refer to? My understanding is that 'that' can only refer back to singular and not plural words.

Hello, davidbeckham. Your understanding appears to need a little refinement. There are, in fact, certain circumstances in which that may only refer to a singular entity. For example, I could not write, That blankets over there need washing. On the other hand, if I am trying to signify which blankets may need washing in, say, a pile of similar-looking blankets, I might conceivably write, The blankets that are on top need washing (as opposed to those that might be underneath). And this ties into what you are asking here. Notice the placement of that in my two examples. When it precedes a noun, that noun had better be singular; when it follows a noun, it can be either singular or plural, depending on the nature of the noun. So, to answer your question above, that correctly refers back to groups. The groups occupy the same territory for long periods.

I hope that helps. If you have further questions, feel free to ask. Good luck with your studies.

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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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davidbeckham wrote:
Thanks again, AndrewN - this is very helpful.

You are quite welcome, davidbeckham. I should add that there are other cases in which you may see a plural noun after that. The first is if you are talking about a direct object:

1) He said that pandas care for their young.

The other is when an entire that clause acts as the subject of a sentence, a case that does come up now and again on the GMAT™:

2) That pandas care for their young is an established fact.

Earlier, I was aiming to convey that in the context of the original sentence, the rules I outlined would apply.

- Andrew
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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What is the difference between
a)animals howling mournfully
e)mournfully howling animals

Which would be the correct answer if choice E used "depicted" with "as" ?
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
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gamebredfighter wrote:
GMATNinja
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What is the difference between
a)animals howling mournfully
e)mournfully howling animals

Which would be the correct answer if choice E used "depicted" with "as" ?

Here's choice (E) as it appears in the question:

(E) films about the American West depict coyotes to be solitary and mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills

Here's (E) with "as":

(E) films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary and mournfully howling animals on the tops of distant hills

That version is a bit off, but not just because "mournfully howling" precedes "animals." On its own "mournfully howling animals" is fine. Just what the entire phrase says is a bit off.

For one thing, "solitary animals" is a constant. Animals would be habitually solitary. On the other hand, they would howl mournfully only at certain times. So, calling them "solitary and mournfully howling animals" isn't quite logical, because "solitary and mournfully howling animals" puts something they always are, "solitary," together with something they do at certain times, "mournfully howling."

That description is kind of like saying "Angela, a friendly and eating dinner person, smiled at her companions." Angela would be friendly generally, but would eat dinner only at certain times.

Notice how much more logical this is, "Angela, a friendly person eating dinner, smiled at her companions."

The other issue with (E) is that "solitary and mournfully howling animals on the tops of distance hills" tends to make the animals seem to be always on the hills, as if they are glued there.

The slightly more logical point to be made is that the animals howl mournfully on hills.

This issue is not a clear cut as the "solitary and mournfully howling animals" issue. However, it still seems to make (E) not quite as good as the OA.

So, even if (E) used "as" rather than "to be," (E) with "mournfully howling" before "animals" still would not make sense.

This version of (E) would makes sense.

(E) films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary animals howling mournfully on the tops of distant hills
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Re: Although films about the American West depict coyotes as solitary [#permalink]
GMATNinja,

I am trying to find a way to eliminate choice B without relying on idiom knowledge. Can we find any other reason to eliminate choice B ?
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