There was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of

There was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated its historical importance and its literary eminence

(A) was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated

The phrase "whether... or... it" is not the correct idiom; The subordinating conjunction "until" indicates that a sequence of verbs is necessary, thus "was" should be had been"; the last verb "validation" continues to the present, so it should be present perfect tense. Incorrect

(B) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated

I didn't like the phrase "whether...or," but everything else was an improvement from A.

© was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated

Here's an improvement from A; irregardless, "until" requires a sequence of events reflected in the verbs.

(D) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated

The verbs in the phrase "whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment" are incorrectly used because there is no reason for the past perfect. What did those events occur before?; furthermore, "had validated" is wrong because the clause requires the action to continue into the present.

(E) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated

same errors as above - "whether or it" and "had validated"

IMO B

There are two events that happened in the past : Debate and Discovery
The Debate took place before the Discovery, so a Past Perfect is required with "Debate" to show the sequence. Hence "had been" is the correct tense. This eliminates (A) and (C).

Now the Validation done as a result of the discovery still holds today and there are no sequence of events here so Past Perfect "had validated" is incorrect, which eliminates (D) and (E). A Present Perfect "has validated" is required here as the Validation happened in the past and it still holds.

This leaves us with (B), which is the correct answer.

I think B.

If we replace "it" with "city of troy" in other choices, sentence doesn't make much sense to me.

is it B ?

the use of 'until' suggest we need to use past perfect tense. hence we can get rid of A and C
D and E seem to be using only past perfect tense which is wrong. That leaves us with B.
Do correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers

There was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated its historical importance and its literary eminence

(A) was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated
had been should be used
(B) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated
Correct
© was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated
had been should be used
(D) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated
the discover has validated not had validated.
(E) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated
the discover has validated not had validated.
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Sorry, but I doubt the use of past perfect, because " until the noted archaeologist" already shows that the debate happened before the discovery. Hence would go with A.

I liked the way you handled the question. I had gone with option E, as I thought that validation was done in the past. I forgot to use the common sense. Thanks a very lucid explanation.


Kudos Well Deserved.

I choose b.
but, there is a problem

a lot of official questions show that "until+past point " go with simple past, not had done.

When until is used , you have an option to choose either past perfect or simple past.

As "until " is already presenting a sequence , simple past is MORE CONCISE and hence preferred in GMAT.

hence decision point is not "until" or tense

2 decision points:

1.The pronoun "it" ... There is no need for a pronoun as the city of Troy can carry two verbs and these are placed properly in parallel.

2.verb tense at the end- the validation has to be present perfect as the validation happened in the past and still is validating .


So choice B is better than C
REASONS- 1. Pronoun "it" can be dropped.


I would like to know the source of the question.
There are still flaws in the question. Because ASSUMING the validation stands till today is not something an OFFICIAL GMAT question would ask us .

There may have been several discoveries which could disprove the validation.

chetan2u sayantanc2k

Is my Reasoning for "until" correct?
Are my other statements regarding the authenticity of the question correct?

Posted from my mobile device

There was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated its historical importance and its literary eminence


(A) was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that validated
- There was a great debate....archaeologist discovered..both cannot happen at the same time. to show the sequence of events, we need "had been a great debate".
- "discovery that validated" -> the discovery did not cease validating. Present prefect is required here.

(B) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated
- correct

(C) was a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that has validated
-There was a great debate....archaeologist discovered..both cannot happen at the same time. to show the sequence of events, we need "had been a great debate".

(D) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy had ever existed or had been a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated
-The validation did not happen before the discovery

(E) had been a great debate among Greek historians whether the city of Troy ever existed or it was a figment of fiction, until the noted archaeologist Schliemann discovered in Turkey a site that many believe to be the ancient city of Troy, a discovery that had validated
--The validation did not happen before the discovery

There has been an argument on whether the use of had been is appropriate with 'until'. Can experts clarify?

I thought that a simple past was ok, because 'until' already clarified which events come first.

Hi,
The use of "until" clearly shows the sequence, so why we are using had here?

I have a similar query, can someone please help out on this?

@E-GMAT can you please explain why C is wrong?

May someone explain the purpose of "a discovery that validated its historical importance and its literary eminence" in the sentence? Is this an example of a (resumptive) modifier or an absolute phrase.

Regarding absolute phrases, I get that they don't have a verb, but does this mean any verbs caught inside a relative clause like above doesn't count (i.e. an absolute phrase can contain verbs inside relative modifiers of a noun)?
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Hi experts,

I have a doubt regarding the usage of untill.
Untill itself is suggesting the sequence of events then why do we need to go with past perfect had been here.
IMO A was the ans when i solved it ...
CAn anyone of you please ans

egmat
GMATNinja generis chetan2u sayantanc2k
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pratishtha1210
"Had" isn't bad or redundant here, but I agree that it isn't actually required. This is not a very good question, and I don't think we have clear grounds for saying that B is right and A is definitely wrong. However, since B isn't actually flawed and the tense is appropriate to convey the sequence of events, I would choose it in a pinch.
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Hello pratishtha1210,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, when the chronology is clear because of terms such as "before/after/when/earlier/later"…or because of clear mention of dates, use past perfect tense is not required, but such usage is not incorrect either.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
Experts' Global Team
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Hi pratishtha1210, there are numerous officially correct answers that use past perfect, despite the usage of such explicit "time markers" such as "before".

For example:

The personal income tax did not become permanent in the United States until the First World War; before that time the federal government had depended on tariffs as its main source of revenue.
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