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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
EducationAisle wrote:
Ergenekon wrote:
I think the answer to this question will always be ambiguous to non - native speakers:)

Hi Ergenekon, I don't take that for an answer, because I am a non-native speaker too:).

Let's give it another shot, with a fresh example, that you can better associate with.

Prior to 2012, GMAT used to have two essays as part of AWA. In 2012 however, GMAC introduced the IR section, replacing one of the AWA essays. So:

i) Prior to 2012, GMAT had two essays as part of AWA
ii) Since 2012, GMAT has had one essay as part of AWA.

How would we articulate this in a sentence?

A 2012 change in the pattern of GMAT reduced the number of essays that students are asked to attempt as part of the GMAT exam.


Now, why can’t we articulate the sentence as:

A 2012 change in the pattern of GMAT reduced the number of essays that students had been asked to attempt as part of the GMAT exam.

For this, let’s understand the intent of the sentence. Students are asked to attempt what as part of the GMAT exam? Well, students are asked to attempt essays as part of the GMAT exam. So, that (in that students…) is clearly referring to essays (and not to number of essays).

Summarily, students attempted essays even prior to 2012; students attempt essays even now (and hence the construct: students are asked to attempt, because students are asked to attempt essays even now). The only thing that changed/reduced in 2012 was their number. Hence, the sentence:

GMAT reduced the number of essays that students are asked to attempt as part of the GMAT exam.

Let me know if it is now making some sense:).


Ok, makes sense. So, can we conclude safely that while using past perfect tense the entire event or the effect of that event no longer exist?
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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Mayank221133 wrote:
Ok, makes sense. So, can we conclude safely that while using past perfect tense the entire event or the effect of that event no longer exist?

While there are very few blanket statements that are applicable on GMAT, I would say that this would largely be true in most cases.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.


(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
The use of past perfect tense is incorrect in the sentence. Though “ a 1972 agreement” might tempt you to mark A, we have to understand the use of past perfect tense. The past perfect tense is used for the former event when there are two events in the timeline.
The use of “had been allowed” means that this was a former event (not the case now)
Hence the use of past perfect tense is incorrect.

(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
The use of past perfect continuous tense is incorrect. Past perfect continuous tense is used to talk about an action that started in the past, continued for a while (action in progress- ing form), and ENDED in the past. Incorrect.

(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
We are talking about a 1972 agreement. We cannot use simple present tense- "reduces" to talk about what was decided in the agreement. Incorrect.

(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
Generally, municipalities are allowed to dump x amount of phosphates into the Great Lakes. But a 1972 agreement reduced that amount.
The agreement between Canada and the US reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.
Correct.

(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities
same as C.
allowed for dumping is not idiomatic.

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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
GMATGuruNY - regarding tenses for option C [have been allowed to dump] and tense for option D [are allowed to dump] specifically

Per my undertanding, both tenses in option C and Option D are BOTH referring to the UPPER LIMIT CURRENTLY ALLOWED just prior to the signing of the 1972 agreement ?

What is wrong with Option C is the "Reduces" and not the have been allowed to dump

Can you confirm if my understanding is accurate

Thank you !
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
GMATGuruNY - regarding tenses for option C [have been allowed to dump] and tense for option D [are allowed to dump] specifically

Per my undertanding, both tenses in option C and Option D are BOTH referring to the UPPER LIMIT CURRENTLY ALLOWED just prior to the signing of the 1972 agreement ?

What is wrong with Option C is the "Reduces" and not the have been allowed to dump

Can you confirm if my understanding is accurate

Thank you !


C: A 1972 agreement...reduces the amount
It is not possible for a 1972 agreement -- an agreement in the PAST -- to perform an action in the PRESENT (reduces).
Eliminate C.

C: the amount...that municipalities have been allowed to dump
Here, the present perfect verb have been allowed implies a PAST action that affects the PRESENT.
As a result, the amount allowed TOMORROW might differ from the amount allowed IN THE PAST and TODAY.
Not the intended meaning.
The intention meaning is that the allowed amount remains constant.
To express a GENERAL TRUTH about the allowed amount, we use the SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE, as in the OA:
the amount...that municipalities are allowed to dump
Eliminate C.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
GMATGuruNY wrote:

C: A 1972 agreement...reduces the amount
It is not possible for a 1972 agreement -- an agreement in the PAST -- to perform an action in the PRESENT (reduces).
Eliminate C.

C: the amount...that municipalities have been allowed to dump
Here, the present perfect verb have been allowed implies a PAST action that affects the PRESENT.
As a result, the amount allowed TOMORROW might differ from the amount allowed IN THE PAST and TODAY.
Not the intended meaning.
The intention meaning is that the allowed amount remains constant.
To express a GENERAL TRUTH about the allowed amount, we use the SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE, as in the OA:
the amount...that municipalities are allowed to dump
Eliminate C.


Hi GMATGuruNY - followup on C, regarding have been allowed

Is time period of have been allowed from 1972 onwards (agreement sign date) to the June 3rd 2021 only (Today's date specifically) ?
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
followup on C, regarding have been allowed

Is time period of have been allowed from 1972 onwards (agreement sign date) to the June 3rd 2021 only (Today's date specifically) ?


The verb in red implies that the act of allowing began at some point in the past and that this act might -- or might not -- continue in the present.
If the intent were to convey that the act of allowing began in 1972, then the red verb would require some sort of time modifier, perhaps as follows:
the amount that municipalities have been allowed since 1972 to dump
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
If the sentence had been "A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities *have been* allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.", would this have been correct?

Doesn't it mean that they reduced the amount of phosphates starting from the past(1972) to the present? And please help me identify how 'are' is correct here.

I would forever be grateful to you if you could help out here.

Thank you
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.


(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump

I chose A because my initial thought was that municipalities were allowed to dump a certain amount prior to 1972 (hence why I OKd the use of 'had been'), and in 1972, this was reduced. Clearly the OA states that this is incorrect, but can someone confirm? How do I make sure that I don't fall into this trap? Because to me it makes perfect sense for something to be allowed at some point, and then a subsequent agreement reducing it.

In other words, the 1972 agreement has reduced the amount that municipalities were previously allowed to dump. Or is this illogical because it implies that the action of dumping, which occurred before 1972, has ended?
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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samsung1234 wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.


(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump

I chose A because my initial thought was that municipalities were allowed to dump a certain amount prior to 1972 (hence why I OKd the use of 'had been'), and in 1972, this was reduced. Clearly the OA states that this is incorrect, but can someone confirm? How do I make sure that I don't fall into this trap? Because to me it makes perfect sense for something to be allowed at some point, and then a subsequent agreement reducing it.

In other words, the 1972 agreement has reduced the amount that municipalities were previously allowed to dump. Or is this illogical because it implies that the action of dumping, which occurred before 1972, has ended?

Good question, one that gets to the heart of what makes SC so challenging. To see why the use of the past perfect in (A) doesn't make sense, consider two examples, one logical, one not.

    By 2016, Tim had been cut by every team in the G-league, some of which he never even attempted to play for.

Here, we have a past action -- Tim getting cut -- occurring before 2016, which is also in the past. Maybe he was cut in 2013 and 2014, etc. This makes sense.

But now look at the following:

    In 2014, Tim was cut from the Santa Cruz Warriors, a move that had reduced his playing time.

Because of the use of the past perfect, the action, "had reduced" must have occurred before 2014. But that doesn't make any sense. How could Tim's getting cut in 2014 have reduced his playing time in 2013 or 2012? It couldn't have. Rather, the move would impact his playing time going forward.

Same wonky logic in this example. The agreement happened in 1972. But if it reduced the amount of phosphates towns had been allowed to dump, then we're somehow reducing the amount that was allowed in 1971 or 1970 or earlier. We can't retroactively change what was once allowed! We can only impact the amount allowed going forward from the time of the agreement. So, the use of the past perfect in (A) is incoherent.

I hope that clears things up!
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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
The trick is
A, B the agreement reduced the phosphates dumped in the past, ie reduce the phosphates retrospectively "had been allowed to dump" - not saying it is wrong, but this is the part verbal reasoning comes it - this does not make much sense, agreement doesn't do this generally, it is to regulate things going forward not an action plan to remedy things in the past

C, E = reduces and the dumping tense unmatched; also not 100% logical to think a 1972 agreement only takes effect now "reduces"

Ans = D: may be confusing but in fact reduced = apply to the agreement in the past in 1972; while the effect continues "are allowed" - the countries are still bound by it
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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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[quote="souvik101990"]A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.


(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump

(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping

(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump

(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump

(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

of course, choice D is best. but I want to say my idea on choice D.
in the past, the agreement reduced the present amount allowed to dump. this is absurd.

at present, the amount allowed to dump is 50kg. and the agreement in the past will reduce this amount to 40kg. absurd.
the present amount is 50. the past amount is 60 and this amount was reduced to 50. so, everything happened in the past and "are allowed" should be changed into " were allowed".

the past agreement reduced the amount that WERE allowed . this is more logical.

Originally posted by thangvietnam on 29 Aug 2021, 02:37.
Last edited by thangvietnam on 30 Aug 2021, 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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thangvietnam

Be careful--usually, when an official answer seems absurd, that means we've misinterpreted it. Answer choice D doesn't require any weird time travel paradoxes. All it means is that what happened in the past created a change, and that change is still in effect today. Using your terms, that would mean that before 1972, the limit was 50 kg, but ever since then (including today), the limit is 40 kg. Similarly, I could say "This book changed the way I see cooking" or "The pandemic changed the way our classes are taught."
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
Hi GMATNinja

Why can we use amount to describe countable noun?
I thought "amount" is used to describe only uncountable noun?

Could you please kindly help to explain or take other official examples to verify the concept?
Thank you so much!
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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Well0909 wrote:
Hi GMATNinja

Why can we use amount to describe countable noun?
I thought "amount" is used to describe only uncountable noun?

Could you please kindly help to explain or take other official examples to verify the concept?
Thank you so much!


Hello Well0909,

We hope this finds you well.

Having gone through the question and your query, we believe that we can help resolve your doubt.

Here, "amount" refers to the amount of each individual phosphate; in this context, "phosphates" refers to a collection of material nouns, nouns used to refer to a substance. Material nouns are always uncountable because they refer to the concept of a material rather than to specific instances of the material. Here, "amount" is correct because the sentence refers to the "phosphates", conceptually.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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Well0909 wrote:
Hi GMATNinja

Why can we use amount to describe countable noun?
I thought "amount" is used to describe only uncountable noun?

Could you please kindly help to explain or take other official examples to verify the concept?
Thank you so much!

Here's another official example that uses "amount" in a similar way:

Quote:
Some scientists have been critical of the laboratory tests conducted by the Federal Drug Administration on the grounds that the amounts of suspected carcinogens fed to animals far exceed those that humans could consume.


Notice that it wouldn't make sense to talk about a number of carcinogens in this context. We're not worried about whether animals are subjected to 6 or 7 different types of carcinogens. Rather, we're talking about a measurement, or amount of the carcinogens they're exposed to.

Same deal in this question. It's not like there are 11 different phosphates in the Great Lakes and the agreement hopes to reduce that number to 9 phosphates. It's far more logical to assume we're talking about a measurement, so again, we want "amount."

The takeaway: if we're talking about a measurement, we use "less" or "amount." If we're talking about an integer value of discrete elements, we use "fewer" or "number."

I hope that clears things up!
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
GMATNinja,

Hello Sir,

what if we said:

Until today, a 1972 agreement reduces (reduced? has been reducing?) the amount of phosphates municipalities are allowed to dump.

If I take the great example you gave with the war, I would go with ends:

Until today, the treaty ends (ended and has been ending sound strange here) the war.

So would it be better to use reduces in my example because we focus on the effect more now than in the original question?

Thanks
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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