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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
In option C is in’t verb missing ?
John began washing the dishes that WERE piled up in the sink

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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
C. John began washing the dishes that piled up in the sink
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Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
waytowharton wrote:
In option C is in’t verb missing ?
John began washing the dishes that WERE piled up in the sink

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waytowharton

its talking about specific dishes that piled up in the sink
"were" is optional

correct ans is option C
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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
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AndrewN VeritasKarishma
Many a times we eliminate the choices because they don't reflect the intended meaning.
I am just curious to know if we have some way by which we can tune-up with the "intended meaning" of the problem.

In this problem-
C. John began washing the dishes that piled up in the sink
- Grammatically correct.
- The intended meaning : John started washing an "specific" set of dishes.

- Problem with this choice : It says "the dishes that piled up in the sink" . The dishes can't be piled up by their own. IMO, better version would be "the dishes that WERE piled up in the sink"

D. Piled up in the sink, the dishes were washed by John.
- Grammatically correct.
(In active voice, the doer is the subject.
In the passive voice, the subject is acted upon by some other. Here, the verb-ed modifier is closer to the subject)
.
- The intended meaning : John "finished" the act of washing an "specific" set of dishes.

- Problem with this choice : The focus is shifted from the doer to the repient of the action.

In such problems, we have to make decisions based on what we believe is "intended".
Any suggestion to deal with such problems?
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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
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Sumi1010 wrote:
AndrewN VeritasKarishma
Many a times we eliminate the choices because they don't reflect the intended meaning.
I am just curious to know if we have some way by which we can tune-up with the "intended meaning" of the problem.

In this problem-
C. John began washing the dishes that piled up in the sink
- Grammatically correct.
- The intended meaning : John started washing an "specific" set of dishes.

- Problem with this choice : It says "the dishes that piled up in the sink" . The dishes can't be piled up by their own. IMO, better version would be "the dishes that WERE piled up in the sink"

D. Piled up in the sink, the dishes were washed by John.
- Grammatically correct.
(In active voice, the doer is the subject.
In the passive voice, the subject is acted upon by some other. Here, the verb-ed modifier is closer to the subject)
.
- The intended meaning : John "finished" the act of washing an "specific" set of dishes.

- Problem with this choice : The focus is shifted from the doer to the repient of the action.

In such problems, we have to make decisions based on what we believe is "intended".
Any suggestion to deal with such problems?

Hello, Sumi1010. I can tell you that somehow, I have seen this question before, but I do not remember when. (I remember the answer, though, which I will refrain from discussing so that I do not ruin the reveal.) I recall that I found the question itself problematic. Why? For the very reason you have elucidated. How can we tell what the intended meaning may be when the entire sentence is underlined? And look at the difference between (A) and (B). Really? Do you think GMAC™ would test a one-word change from "began" to "started"? Certainly not. And if this notion of beginning to wash dishes is vital to the sentence, then we can eliminate (D) right away. One quick note: (D) may not necessarily be commenting on an after-the-fact action. An active-voice iteration of that answer choice might read, John washed the dishes piled up in the sink. Even though was washing would better convey an ongoing action, the simple past could operate in such a capacity. The passive voice does not automatically convey that the action is finished. Meanwhile, I am in complete agreement with you on (C): were would make all the difference, and this question would no longer be contentious.

In the end, you can only trust the non-underlined portion of the original sentence regarding intended meaning. Everything that is underlined can be negotiated in some way, so you have to fall back on considerations such as expressed meaning and grammatical issues to differentiate the answer choices. Notice how the following official questions that are also completely underlined all provide less debatable ways to eliminate incorrect answer choices:

1) Link
2) Link
3) Link

That is what I have to say on the matter at hand. You have to use your best judgment and aim to get behind the answer that you have a harder time arguing against.

Thank you for thinking to ask me. (And just for good measure, stick to official questions as much as possible for Verbal. These side questions should be more for fun.)

- Andrew
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Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes.


A. Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes
John is piled up in the sink?

B. Piled up in the sink, John started washing the dishes
same as A
C. John began washing the dishes that piled up in the sink
Correct option. clear meaning.
D. Piled up in the sink, the dishes were washed by John
C communicates a clearer succint meaning in Active voice.
E. Piled up in the sink, John washed the dishes
same error as A
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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
AndrewN wrote:
Sumi1010 wrote:
AndrewN VeritasKarishma
Many a times we eliminate the choices because they don't reflect the intended meaning.
I am just curious to know if we have some way by which we can tune-up with the "intended meaning" of the problem.

In this problem-
C. John began washing the dishes that piled up in the sink
- Grammatically correct.
- The intended meaning : John started washing an "specific" set of dishes.

- Problem with this choice : It says "the dishes that piled up in the sink" . The dishes can't be piled up by their own. IMO, better version would be "the dishes that WERE piled up in the sink"

D. Piled up in the sink, the dishes were washed by John.
- Grammatically correct.
(In active voice, the doer is the subject.
In the passive voice, the subject is acted upon by some other. Here, the verb-ed modifier is closer to the subject)
.
- The intended meaning : John "finished" the act of washing an "specific" set of dishes.

- Problem with this choice : The focus is shifted from the doer to the recipient of the action.

In such problems, we have to make decisions based on what we believe is "intended".
Any suggestion to deal with such problems?

Hello, Sumi1010. I can tell you that somehow, I have seen this question before, but I do not remember when. (I remember the answer, though, which I will refrain from discussing so that I do not ruin the reveal.) I recall that I found the question itself problematic. Why? For the very reason you have elucidated. How can we tell what the intended meaning may be when the entire sentence is underlined? And look at the difference between (A) and (B). Really? Do you think GMAC™ would test a one-word change from "began" to "started"? Certainly not. And if this notion of beginning to wash dishes is vital to the sentence, then we can eliminate (D) right away. One quick note: (D) may not necessarily be commenting on an after-the-fact action. An active-voice iteration of that answer choice might read, John washed the dishes piled up in the sink. Even though was washing would better convey an ongoing action, the simple past could operate in such a capacity. The passive voice does not automatically convey that the action is finished. Meanwhile, I am in complete agreement with you on (C): were would make all the difference, and this question would no longer be contentious.

In the end, you can only trust the non-underlined portion of the original sentence regarding intended meaning. Everything that is underlined can be negotiated in some way, so you have to fall back on considerations such as expressed meaning and grammatical issues to differentiate the answer choices. Notice how the following official questions that are also completely underlined all provide less debatable ways to eliminate incorrect answer choices:

1) Link
2) Link
3) Link

That is what I have to say on the matter at hand. You have to use your best judgment and aim to get behind the answer that you have a harder time arguing against.

Thank you for thinking to ask me. (And just for good measure, stick to official questions as much as possible for Verbal. These side questions should be more for fun.)

- Andrew


Thanks AndrewN :)
I can sense now why is it not an easy task to make a GMAT-like problem.
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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
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Sumi1010 wrote:
Thanks AndrewN :)
I can sense now why is it not an easy task to make a GMAT-like problem.

That is a respectful way of putting it, Sumi1010, and I agree with you—writing GMAT™-like questions in a way that closely mimics official questions is no easy task. Many of the attempts I see from third-party sources are either one-note, designed to test a single grammatical point, or make assumptions about SC that are just not true, for instance that the original sentence, underlined portion and all, somehow conveys the intended meaning. (If such were the case, then (A) would be correct much more frequently than proves to be the case.)

From your posts—yes, not just the one in this thread—I can tell that you have a keen understanding of the SC task. If you have identified issues within the most reasonable answer choices in this case, then perhaps that is the best takeaway from the question.

Keep up the fine work.

- Andrew
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Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
I’m jumping aboard the C train for reasons related to meaning issues. However, I spent the better part of over a minute attempting to verify and pinpoint the intended meaning and deciding which answer choice, C or D, best expressed that intended meaning.

A, B, and E can be eliminated because “John” can not be “piled up in the sink.” This is a Classic Misplaced Modifier issue.

(D) “Piled up in the sink, the dishes were washed by John.”

I get the sense that the question writers weren’t as focused on the subtle meaning issues with (C) and (D) as they were on the misplaced modifier issue in (A) , (B), and (E).

Even though (D) is written using the passive voice, I don’t see this fact, on its own, as a reason to eliminate the answer choice.

My issue with answer (D) is tough to convey in a clear manner, but I will try my best. In the end, it may be a non-issue and I could be wrong.

It is my understanding that a Participial Modifier set off by commas (such as “piled up in the sink,....”) latches on to the time-frame of the main working verb in the sentence.

“Piled up in the sink” refers to these dishes. Also, the simple past tense is used to show that the washing was done as a single action in the past. From a meaning standpoint, we could have either dishes “piled up in the sink” or the dishes “washed” by John. The sentence makes it seem as if both descriptions occurred at the same time. I’m not sure whether this is a completely logical description of events.

On the other hand, Answer choice (C), as stated above, lacks the verb “were” in the Relative Clause.

However, the sentence provided by answer (C) gives us a clearer picture of the sequence of events. Furthermore, this sequence of events seems logical.

“John began washing dishes that piled up in the sink.”

The implication of this sentence is that John is in the present or near-present time. The sentence discusses an ongoing action that John is performing. What is John doing? John began washing. The Direct Object being washed? The dishes.

More importantly, the relative pronoun “that” modifies “dishes,” telling us that these are dishes “that piled up in the sink” in the Past. This occurs before John began washing the dishes, a sequence of events that makes logical sense.

Although not perfect (very few of the upper level 700+ questions in the newer O.G.’s seem to be written in a perfect manner), I believe Answer Choice (C) fixes the Misplaced Modifier Issue in a way that clearly conveys the sequence of events and meaning of the intended sentence.

AndrewN , as always, is spot on. These subtle problems that show up in some of the unofficial questions should be looked at as exercises for us to stretch our brains. Sticking to the Official Questions for guidelines and rules is always the best course of action.

EDIT AFTER FURTHER REFLECTION:
Please ignore this explanation. A poor question, and an even worse response by me.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see what the final answer will be, C or D.

Posted from my mobile device

Originally posted by Fdambro294 on 16 May 2021, 09:54.
Last edited by Fdambro294 on 19 May 2021, 06:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
Expert Reply
Sumi1010 wrote:
AndrewN VeritasKarishma
Many a times we eliminate the choices because they don't reflect the intended meaning.
I am just curious to know if we have some way by which we can tune-up with the "intended meaning" of the problem.

In this problem-
C. John began washing the dishes that piled up in the sink
- Grammatically correct.
- The intended meaning : John started washing an "specific" set of dishes.

- Problem with this choice : It says "the dishes that piled up in the sink" . The dishes can't be piled up by their own. IMO, better version would be "the dishes that WERE piled up in the sink"

D. Piled up in the sink, the dishes were washed by John.
- Grammatically correct.
(In active voice, the doer is the subject.
In the passive voice, the subject is acted upon by some other. Here, the verb-ed modifier is closer to the subject)
.
- The intended meaning : John "finished" the act of washing an "specific" set of dishes.

- Problem with this choice : The focus is shifted from the doer to the repient of the action.

In such problems, we have to make decisions based on what we believe is "intended".
Any suggestion to deal with such problems?


We cannot guess the intended meaning. Two sentences, if both grammatically correct - one saying "the action has started" and another saying "the action is done" - are both correct.
When we say meaning error, we mean that the sentence is saying something illogical. For example, "the dishes that piled up in the sink..."
The dishes cannot pile up themselves.
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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
ERROR ANALYSIS -

1) Noun modifier must be close the noun it modifies - 'Piled up in the sink' should be close to dishes

ANSWER CHOICE ANALYSIS -

A) Noun modifier not close to noun
B) Noun modifier not close to noun
C) CORRECT
D) TRAP - The meaning of this sentence is the dishes were washed by John, however the question states that John began washing the dishes - subtle but significant difference
E) Noun modifier not close to noun
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Re: Piled up in the sink, John began washing the dishes. [#permalink]
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