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Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
Hi IanStewart MartyTargetTestPrep - my question is if the following WOULD HAVE been another weakeness if the GMAT introduced another option

I ask to solidify my understanding

Quote:
(Option F) Based on recently discovered historical records, human migration occured from Brazil and the Argentinas into the Americas because of trade, 13000 years ago.


Normally I would NOT have considered this a legitimate weakeness because this weakness doesnt touch on the 'link' between the premise and the conclusion in the argument.

But I think, in this case this weakness is passable because of the question stem

I think the word "new evidence" mentioned in the question stem -- allows for new evidence to be introduced that doesnt touch on the 'link' between the premise and the conclusion

True you think or you think in this case too -- option F would be rejected because the evidence may be recently discovered but this new evidence still has to touch on the 'link' between the premises and the conclusion.

thoughts ?
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:

Quote:
(Option F) Based on recently discovered historical records, human migration occured from Brazil and the Argentinas into the Americas because of trade, 13000 years ago.


Normally I would NOT have considered this a legitimate weakeness because this weakness doesnt touch on the 'link' between the premise and the conclusion in the argument.

But I think, in this case this weakness is passable because of the question stem


If the question was asking specifically about North America, then your answer F would be a perfectly good weakener, because it would point out a possibility the argument hadn't even considered. There might be other ways to get into North America besides through the Alaska-Siberia land bridge, and perhaps people first came by those other routes between 11,000 and 18,000 years ago. But as the question is written, your answer is not a weakener; instead it's a lot like answer B. Brazil and Argentina are part of "the Americas" (the Americas includes South America), so your answer F just establishes that people were already in the Americas more than 13,000 years ago. Maybe they first got there more than 18,000 years ago, and maybe they didn't.
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Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
IanStewart wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:

Quote:
(Option F) Based on recently discovered historical records, human migration occured from Brazil and the Argentinas into the Americas because of trade, 13000 years ago.


Normally I would NOT have considered this a legitimate weakeness because this weakness doesnt touch on the 'link' between the premise and the conclusion in the argument.

But I think, in this case this weakness is passable because of the question stem


If the question was asking specifically about North America, then your answer F would be a perfectly good weakener, because it would point out a possibility the argument hadn't even considered. There might be other ways to get into North America besides through the Alaska-Siberia land bridge, and perhaps people first came by those other routes between 11,000 and 18,000 years ago. But as the question is written, your answer is not a weakener; instead it's a lot like answer B. Brazil and Argentina are part of "the Americas" (the Americas includes South America), so your answer F just establishes that people were already in the Americas more than 13,000 years ago. Maybe they first got there more than 18,000 years ago, and maybe they didn't.


Thank so much IanStewart -- just so i am clear ...let me scratch out Brazil and Argentina and instead say Asia, that way there is no chance of any overlap

Quote:
(Option F) Based on recently discovered historical records, human migration occured from Brazil and the Argentinas Asia into the Americas because of trade, 13000 years ago.


you think this would be a weakener ?

i was debating if this would be a weakener ..

One one hand -- this does talk about something that the argument has not even considered
On the other -- it doesnt weaken the 'link' between the premise and the conclusion specifically
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Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
IanStewart
^^ reason is -- on other CR questions - i have seen answers rejected because the answer supposedly doesnt touch on the 'link' between the specific premise and the conclusion
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
Premise : migration CANNOT take place 18,000 years ago to 11,000 years ago
OA : D -- actually migration DID take place 11,400 years ago and before.

This is a strange OA because we are not allowed to question the premise (in red)

I have seen many answer choices marked INCORRECT in other CR's because the answer choice (a) 'challenged' the premise or (b) the answer choice stated something different to what the premise states

How come in this CR - the D and the premise, both cannot be true at the same time ?


You're right, jabhatta2: generally premises are not to be questioned, and this particular problem appears to violate that rule.

However, let's take a closer look at some language hints that make it okay (I'm guessing that this is how GMAC would defend their choices):
Observe the difference between these two premises:
(1) Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, is known to be 11,200 years old.
(2) Researchers reasoned that, since glaciers prevented human migration south from the Alaska-Siberia land bridge between 18,000 and 11,000 years ago

So the first premise is "known to be", whereas the second premise is something that "the researchers reasoned"

Then, in the OA, the word "new" is very important:
Using new radiocarbon dating techniques

I hope this helps!
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
RockGmat wrote:
Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, is known to be 11,200 years old. Researchers reasoned that, since glaciers prevented human migration south from the Alaska-Siberia land bridge between 18,000 and 11,000 years ago, humans must have come to the Americas more than 18,000 years ago.


Which of the following pieces of new evidence would cast doubt on the conclusion drawn above?

(A) Using new radiocarbon dating techniques, it was determined that the charcoal from the Colorado site was at least 11,400 years old.
This doesn't make any difference to the inference therefore out

(B) Another campsite was found in New Mexico with remains dated at 16,000 years old.
Absolutely irrelevant we are weak at geography in addition there is nothing we can infer about the same from the sentence therefore out

(C) A computer simulation of glacial activity showed that it would already have been impossible for humans to travel south overland from Alaska 18,500 years ago.
This further adds strength to the subject therefore out

(D) Using new radiocarbon dating techniques, it was proved that an ice-free corridor allowed passage south from the Alaska-Siberia land bridge at least 11,400 years ago.
This immensely cast doubt on the subject that the passage was absolutely impossible to transverse , no more the case therefore our answer

(E) Studies of various other hunting-gathering populations showed convincingly that, once the glaciers allowed passage, humans could have migrated from Alaska to Colorado in about 20 years.
This doesn't have any impact at all therefore out

THerefore IMO D
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
saurabh9gupta wrote:
Hi everyone,

Request one of the experts to take a stab at this.

I am still not able to understand why D is the answer.

Swat40 wrote:
Dear Experts,
Please clear my queries:
1) I feel both option C and D weakens the conclusion. However, I am unable to understand why option D is preferred.\
option C: Weakens the author's conclusion by eliminating the possibility of human arrival before 18500 years. However, it is not full proof since leaves open the 18000-18500 duration.
option D: Casts doubt for the duration between 18000 & 11400 years ago. However, not full proof since leaves open the possibility of more than 18k years ago.

Moreover, i am not comfortable with the "charcoal" info with reference to the overall argument. The charcoal is if dated 11200 years old, how the argument is coorelating it with humans coming more than 18k years ago.

Let's take a fresh look at the prompt:

Quote:
Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, is known to be 11,200 years old. Researchers reasoned that, since glaciers prevented human migration south from the Alaska-Siberia land bridge between 18,000 and 11,000 years ago, humans must have come to the Americas more than 18,000 years ago.

The researchers’ conclusion is that humans must have come to the Americas more than 18,000 years ago. Here's how they reach this conclusion:

  • Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado is 11,200 years old. A hearth is a human-made fireplace, so this implies that the charcoal was the result of human activity. (Presumably, the charcoal was laced with THC. Hey, I'm a Coloradan, so I'm allowed to make that joke!)
  • In other words, humans were in Colorado at least 11,200 years ago.
  • Colorado is 2,000 miles south of Alaska.
  • Between 18,000 and 11,000 years ago, glaciers prevented human migration south from the Alaska-Siberia land bridge (which connects Alaska and Siberia).
  • Therefore, humans must have come to the Americas more than 18,000 years ago.

The charcoal is evidence that humans were in Colorado 11,200 years ago or prior. But humans could not have migrated into the Americas between 18,000 and 11,000 years ago, because they would have been blocked by glaciers during this period. Therefore, humans could not have come to the Americas between 18,000 and 11,200 years ago. So researchers conclude that humans must have come to the Americas prior to 18,000 years ago (implying that the descendants of those initial migrants lit a fire that left behind some charcoal 11,200 years ago).

Quote:
Which of the following pieces of new evidence would cast doubt on the conclusion drawn above?

If there were any reason to doubt the evidence, then we’d have a harder time accepting the conclusion. The conclusion focuses on when humans came to the Americas, so any sign that humans could have migrated between 18,000 and 11,200 years ago — despite the glaciers — would certainly weaken the conclusion. New information about the charcoal’s age might help us as well, but knowing the age of the charcoal is kind of far from what we really care about: when humans could have migrated into the Americas.

Quote:
(A) Using new radiocarbon dating techniques, it was determined that the charcoal from the Colorado site was at least 11,400 years old.

So what? All we know from choice (A) is that humans made a fire at least 200 years earlier than we had originally thought. This doesn't shed any light on when humans came to the Americas, and doesn’t challenge the role of glaciers in blocking human migration. Even if (A) is true, we must still accept the fact that humans couldn’t migrate into the Americas between 18,000 and 11,000 years ago. (A) does nothing to weaken the conclusion, so let's eliminate it.

Quote:
(B) Another campsite was found in New Mexico with remains dated at 16,000 years old.

This has no bearing on the argument. Knowing that another human-made site in the Americas existed 16,000 years ago doesn't tell us anything about whether humans could have migrated between 18,000 and 16,000 years ago (a time period when we know that they could not). Consequently, (B) does not weaken the argument, and we'll eliminate it.

Quote:
(C) A computer simulation of glacial activity showed that it would already have been impossible for humans to travel south overland from Alaska 18,500 years ago.

This slightly strengthens the argument by providing a second source of evidence supporting what we already know about glaciers. If it had been already impossible for humans to travel south 18,500 years ago, then it certainly was impossible for humans to migrate into the Americas between 18,000 and 11,200 years ago.

And since the age of the charcoal remains 11,200 years old, (C) reinforces the author's conclusion that humans must have arrived prior to 18,000 years ago. To be precise, (C) would lead us to believe that humans arrived prior to 18,500 years ago (which by definition is more than 18,000 years ago).

That's why we eliminate (C).

Quote:
(D) Using new radiocarbon dating techniques, it was proved that an ice-free corridor allowed passage south from the Alaska-Siberia land bridge at least 11,400 years ago.

This is right on the money! Choice (D) cuts straight through the argument by telling us that the glaciers, in fact, did not prevent all human migration between 18,000 and 11,200 years ago. This new evidence suggests that human migration could have taken place between 11,400 and 11,200 years ago.

Remember, the conclusion states that humans must have come to the Americas more than 18,000 years ago. If (D) is true, then humans could have migrated after 18,000 years ago. This definitely casts doubt on the conclusion, so let’s keep (D) around.

Quote:
(E) Studies of various other hunting-gathering populations showed convincingly that, once the glaciers allowed passage, humans could have migrated from Alaska to Colorado in about 20 years.

Who cares? Choice (E) only tells us about what could have happened once the glaciers allowed passage — i.e., 11,000 years ago. We don’t care about what happened 11,000 years ago. We want to know whether humans could have migrated between 18,000 and 11,200 yearse ago. Eliminate (E).

(D) is the only choice that weakens the conclusion, so it’s our winner.

I hope this helps!


Your responses are so clear, yet at the same time fully free of jargon. You are up there amongst the pantheon of Verbal Gods, kind sire - thank you for all the work you do!
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
RockGmat wrote:
Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, is known to be 11,200 years old. Researchers reasoned that, since glaciers prevented human migration south from the Alaska-Siberia land bridge between 18,000 and 11,000 years ago, humans must have come to the Americas more than 18,000 years ago.

Which of the following pieces of new evidence would cast doubt on the conclusion drawn above?

(A) Using new radiocarbon dating techniques, it was determined that the charcoal from the Colorado site was at least 11,400 years old.

(B) Another campsite was found in New Mexico with remains dated at 16,000 years old.

(C) A computer simulation of glacial activity showed that it would already have been impossible for humans to travel south overland from Alaska 18,500 years ago.

(D) Using new radiocarbon dating techniques, it was proved that an ice-free corridor allowed passage south from the Alaska-Siberia land bridge at least 11,400 years ago.

(E) Studies of various other hunting-gathering populations showed convincingly that, once the glaciers allowed passage, humans could have migrated from Alaska to Colorado in about 20 years.


Guys, I am really looking forward for a response. D-day in 2 days. GMATNinja Bunuel. Hope I am not offending either of you by tagging both of you. Lol!

So this particular question in really buzzing me. While I chose the right option D (probably the best choice), but I am not convinced. ins't this choice (D) attacking the premise? The premise said glaciers blocked the way. (I get it - you would probably say the choice is attacking the assumption that there were no other way). But the premise really says that glaciers prevented human migration. How do we know ice free corridor were at some other place and not between the glaciers that prevented the movement. If the ice free corridor way between the glaciers then the glaciers didn't really prevent the movement and in that case we are really attacking the premise. Dam I am so confused and I guess I am confusing you all as well. Sorry! :(

Appreciate if anyone dare to take and pain and clarify my concerns.

Posted from my mobile device
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
Option D -at least 11,400 years ago
means that year >=11,400.
it can be 11,500, 11,600 years ago too right?
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
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SolankiDas wrote:
Option D -at least 11,400 years ago
means that year >=11,400.
it can be 11,500, 11,600 years ago too right?


Yes, option (D) says that the passage was open at least 11,400 years ago. It could have been open 11,500 years ago or 12,000 years ago etc too.
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Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
KarishmaB wrote:
SolankiDas wrote:
Option D -at least 11,400 years ago
means that year >=11,400.
it can be 11,500, 11,600 years ago too right?


Yes, option (D) says that the passage was open at least 11,400 years ago. It could have been open 11,500 years ago or 12,000 years ago etc too.


Hi KarishmaB - would you agree with my analysis regarding the word 'at-least' from a number line perspective ?

  • I have at-least 5 $ == i have 5 $ or 6 $ or 7 $ [so moving RIGHT on the number line, when numbers are positive]
  • I have to re-pay at-least 5 $ === i have to re-pay 5 $ or 6 $ or 7 $ [so moving LEFT on the number line because the context is negative numbers]

So the word 'atleast' means :
- Moving Right on the number line (when the context of the situation is positive numbers)
- Moving Left on the number line (when the context of the situation is negative numbers)

-----

Thus the word "At-most" would mean the opposite, namely :

- Moving LEFT on the number line (when the context of the situation is positive numbers)
- Moving Right on the number line (when the context of the situation is negative numbers)


Thus -- if option (d-variant) had used "AT-most 11,400 years ago" -- that would mean GOING RIGHT on the number line -
-- 11,400 years ago or 11,300 years ago or 11,200 year ago..

I think in that case too - "AT-most 11,400 years ago" -- i think thats a weakener too, i presume ?
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
Expert Reply
jabhatta2 wrote:
This is a strange OA because we are not usaully allowed to question the premise (marked in red)

I have seen many answer choices marked INCORRECT in other CR's because the answer choice (a) 'challenged' the premise or (b) the answer choice stated something different to what the premise states


jabhatta2 wrote:
Normally I would NOT have considered this a legitimate weakeness because this weakness doesnt touch on the 'link' between the premise and the conclusion in the argument.


Hi jabhatta2,

I think the meat of your question addressed to me was answered by avigutman.

I'll add a couple of general things:

Quote:
Which of the following pieces of new evidence would cast doubt on the conclusion drawn above?


When you read this question stem, do you get a sense that:

1. If an answer choice seems to contradict the passage, it can't cast doubt on the conclusion?
2. If an answer choice doesn't touch on the "link" in the argument, it can't weaken an argument?


I'd question whether these notions are even correct in the first place.
I'd revisit questions in which you found that answer choices were rejected on these bases.
I'd compare those questions with this one to understand the nuances.
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Re: Charcoal from a hearth site in Colorado, 2,000 miles south of Alaska, [#permalink]
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