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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
HiLine wrote:
I used only the Official Guide to study for the Logical Reasoning and Reading Comprehension portions. I practiced a lot of those questions in the Guide. Un-timed. Un-timed is the key. I never gave myself time limits for the practice questions, instead focusing on accuracy, but naturally I became faster while maintaining near 100% accuracy. Eventually I got to the level where I could solve the majority of Logical Reasoning and Reading Comprehension questions within 1 minute each, despite never giving myself time limits. For Reading Comprehension, I ended up spending on average about 1.5 minutes on each question. This speed allowed me plenty of time for the difficult questions.

If you had not timed yourself, do you think you would have got most of the Verbal questions correct?


Thanks for the advice :) I think focusing on accuracy is something I've missed in my studying. I've always emphasized on timing and thought i could just improve accuracy while I improve speed. Turned out this strategy hasn't been working really well.... While my speed has certainly improved, accuracy stays the same (60-70%). I do think if I allow myself as much as I need for every question I can get 80-maybe 85% questions right at this point. Would you suggest that I try to improve my accuracy to 100% like you did before I start timing myself again? Also, since you've had LSAT experience, do you think practicing some of the LSAT LR questions will help with the CR section on GMAT?

And thanks again for the tips. It's always good to know how strong testers prepare for the exam. :-D
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
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dannibearz wrote:
HiLine wrote:
I used only the Official Guide to study for the Logical Reasoning and Reading Comprehension portions. I practiced a lot of those questions in the Guide. Un-timed. Un-timed is the key. I never gave myself time limits for the practice questions, instead focusing on accuracy, but naturally I became faster while maintaining near 100% accuracy. Eventually I got to the level where I could solve the majority of Logical Reasoning and Reading Comprehension questions within 1 minute each, despite never giving myself time limits. For Reading Comprehension, I ended up spending on average about 1.5 minutes on each question. This speed allowed me plenty of time for the difficult questions.

If you had not timed yourself, do you think you would have got most of the Verbal questions correct?


Thanks for the advice :) I think focusing on accuracy is something I've missed in my studying. I've always emphasized on timing and thought i could just improve accuracy while I improve speed. Turned out this strategy hasn't been working really well.... While my speed has certainly improved, accuracy stays the same (60-70%). I do think if I allow myself as much as I need for every question I can get 80-maybe 85% questions right at this point. Would you suggest that I try to improve my accuracy to 100% like you did before I start timing myself again? Also, since you've had LSAT experience, do you think practicing some of the LSAT LR questions will help with the CR section on GMAT?

And thanks again for the tips. It's always good to know how strong testers prepare for the exam. :-D


You are much welcome. Thanks for raising the good questions.

Yes you should target near-100% accuracy before even thinking about time. As you have observed, improving accuracy while under time pressure does not work very well. As you become better at answering questions, your speed will improve naturally. Think about learning Excel. You get fast by familiarizing yourself with the formulas and shortcuts; you don't get good by typing fast something nonsensical. Also think about learning to ski. You learn the techniques first and get fast naturally; you do not try to ski fast and then learn the techniques.

And yes, LSAT logical reasoning questions definitely help if you want to tackle more challenging questions. For the most part though, the Official Guide and the Official Verbal Review should be plenty for your needs. I never got to the Verbal Review since I did not have time to use up the Verbal questions in the Official Guide, but I'd imagine the Verbal Review would have been helpful since it contains actual GMAT questions. Keep in mind that LSAT questions include more types of questions than GMAT questions do, so you'd have to filter out irrelevant question types which may be a time-consuming process. In most situations, using LSAT materials to prepare for the GMAT is overkill. Two exceptions I can think of are when you have already exhausted the GMAC materials using previous improper methods, and when you find the GMAC materials too easy and would like to be prepared for the curve balls on the test day.
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
Hi Line ,


Can you please tell us is the Power Score LSAT bible highly recommended for the verbal scores such as yours
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
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So I had a VERY similar path - took the LSAT in 2011 and decided not to attend law school, then scored a 770 on the GMAT. I think you're spot on that the LSAT can provide very good prep for the logical reasoning aspect of the GMAT. Two things that I did differently, and this is where I think it comes down to preference:

1- I timed every question. Especially for quant, since that's where I needed to improve time for the most part. I would give myself an initial 2 min to solve every problem, even if it was just 1 question at a time. Then after running out of time, I would stop, take note of where I was, then attempt the problem again slowly and methodically. Only then, would I check the correct answer, after working the problem both with a time limit and without. This allowed me to see where I was making errors when I was rushed vs. how I worked when I was working carefully. A lot of the difficulty derives from the time limit - most of these problems are really not that difficult if you have unlimited time. I found that if I just gave myself unlimited time on every problem, I wasn't making any progress, but once I began finding strategies for cutting time while reducing errors, I made huge improvements.

2- I went into the test feeling like a friggin badass. And this is 100% up to the individual, but I needed all of the confidence I could get. When I got to the testing center, I saw a girl come running out in tears. Of course my anxious brain assumed she had just gotten her GMAT score and her hopes and dreams were crushed, just like mine were about to be. So I spent about 20 min taking a little walk and getting myself psyched up for the test. It's so easy to fixate on the difficulty of the problems and how you're doing during the test - "Oh this question is really easy. I must have gotten a bunch wrong! Or is this actually a difficult question and I'm missing something? Crap... 30 seconds just went by?!" Having a mentality of, "Boom! Another question crushed. On to the next one" even if you may have missed the last question can work wonders for staying focused. I forget who it was, but someone posted that you should look yourself in the mirror and get all amped up before the test, then walk in and throw the double-guns and a wink to the proctor. I legitimately did that. And rocked the test. And probably weirded the proctor out a little...

Point is - what works for one person may not work for another. I was tearing myself down for so long until I got a high score on a practice test, and suddenly my confidence started to pick up, and I felt better and better about the GMAT. I have a feeling there are a lot of Type-A people who take the GMAT, and thus a lot of us are probably harder on ourselves than we need to be. It's ok to let a good practice score get to your head a little - visualize success, but I guess HiLine is right in that you don't want to overlook the things you need to continue to focus on when it comes to test day.
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
LetMyPeopleGoSurfing wrote:
. I think you're spot on that the LSAT can provide very good prep for the logical reasoning aspect of the GMAT. Two things that I did differently, and this is where I think it comes down to preference:

.

Does GMAT had Logical Reasoning as far as i know the gmat has CR,SC and RC. Has gmat changed its cirricullm
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
BrianAppleIphone7 wrote:
LetMyPeopleGoSurfing wrote:
. I think you're spot on that the LSAT can provide very good prep for the logical reasoning aspect of the GMAT. Two things that I did differently, and this is where I think it comes down to preference:

.

Does GMAT had Logical Reasoning as far as i know the gmat has CR,SC and RC. Has gmat changed its cirricullm


Ok, not literally "Logical Reasoning." The CR component (and somewhat the RC) has a big of a logic reasoning quality to it. It's very similar to the LSAT's logic reasoning sections.
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
[quote="[/quote]

Ok, not literally "Logical Reasoning." The CR component (and somewhat the RC) has a big of a logic reasoning quality to it. It's very similar to the LSAT's logic reasoning sections.[/quote]


So can you tell me should i use Power Score LSAT LR book or RC book for GMAT RC and SC preparation .Which one should i buy from both of the BIbles of Powerscore Lsat LR /RC books
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
BrianAppleIphone7 wrote:
Hi Line ,


Can you please tell us is the Power Score LSAT bible highly recommended for the verbal scores such as yours


The Powerscore's Logical Reasoning Bible is basically a must for the LSAT. Not sure if I'd necessarily recommend it for the GMAT though; like I said, using LSAT materials to study for the GMAT is overkill.
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770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
LetMyPeopleGoSurfing wrote:
So I had a VERY similar path - took the LSAT in 2011 and decided not to attend law school, then scored a 770 on the GMAT. I think you're spot on that the LSAT can provide very good prep for the logical reasoning aspect of the GMAT. Two things that I did differently, and this is where I think it comes down to preference:

1- I timed every question. Especially for quant, since that's where I needed to improve time for the most part. I would give myself an initial 2 min to solve every problem, even if it was just 1 question at a time. Then after running out of time, I would stop, take note of where I was, then attempt the problem again slowly and methodically. Only then, would I check the correct answer, after working the problem both with a time limit and without. This allowed me to see where I was making errors when I was rushed vs. how I worked when I was working carefully. A lot of the difficulty derives from the time limit - most of these problems are really not that difficult if you have unlimited time. I found that if I just gave myself unlimited time on every problem, I wasn't making any progress, but once I began finding strategies for cutting time while reducing errors, I made huge improvements.

2- I went into the test feeling like a friggin badass. And this is 100% up to the individual, but I needed all of the confidence I could get. When I got to the testing center, I saw a girl come running out in tears. Of course my anxious brain assumed she had just gotten her GMAT score and her hopes and dreams were crushed, just like mine were about to be. So I spent about 20 min taking a little walk and getting myself psyched up for the test. It's so easy to fixate on the difficulty of the problems and how you're doing during the test - "Oh this question is really easy. I must have gotten a bunch wrong! Or is this actually a difficult question and I'm missing something? Crap... 30 seconds just went by?!" Having a mentality of, "Boom! Another question crushed. On to the next one" even if you may have missed the last question can work wonders for staying focused. I forget who it was, but someone posted that you should look yourself in the mirror and get all amped up before the test, then walk in and throw the double-guns and a wink to the proctor. I legitimately did that. And rocked the test. And probably weirded the proctor out a little...

Point is - what works for one person may not work for another. I was tearing myself down for so long until I got a high score on a practice test, and suddenly my confidence started to pick up, and I felt better and better about the GMAT. I have a feeling there are a lot of Type-A people who take the GMAT, and thus a lot of us are probably harder on ourselves than we need to be. It's ok to let a good practice score get to your head a little - visualize success, but I guess HiLine is right in that you don't want to overlook the things you need to continue to focus on when it comes to test day.


I knew I wasn't alone in the LSAT --> GMAT camp! :-D How funny that we got the same GMAT score!

Your approach to timing is very intriguing; this methodical approach can come only from someone that has studied for the LSAT, a monster of a logic test. :wink:

Like you said, cutting time is a very important part of the preparation strategies. In my approach, you attain 100% accuracy and maintain that level of accuracy while finding shortcuts to questions to reduce the time spent. And it sounds like you were damn near 100% accuracy without time restrictions anyway, so your primary focus was on speed - you had already moved past the accuracy improvement phase!

I tried to avoid complacency during the preparation time, but on the test day, like you, I felt extremely confident, so much so that I legitimately thought I might pull an 800 if I got lucky. The time flew by. Well, I didn't get that lucky, but I wasn't unlucky either and scored right on par with realistic expectations. Later on, I bought an enhanced score report and noticed that my lowest performance was in reading comprehension, which is not really a big surprise given how little time I had spent on this portion of the test. I wasn't particularly strong on RC for the LSAT either, hmm.

By the way, congratulations on the Haas acceptance!
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770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
HiLine wrote:

8. Try to guess the correct answer before reading the choices. Analyzing each answer choice is a waste of time and mental energy, both of which are crucial for the GMAT.


-HiLine


Can you please explain how did you approach Critical reasoning questions? In Manhattan GMAT prep they teach you to read and analyze each answer and then pick the best one. I see that you used a different strategy. Also, did you use this method in any other section?

Thank you!
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
milano10 wrote:
HiLine wrote:

8. Try to guess the correct answer before reading the choices. Analyzing each answer choice is a waste of time and mental energy, both of which are crucial for the GMAT.


-HiLine


Can you please explain how did you approach Critical reasoning questions? In Manhattan GMAT prep they teach you to read and analyze each answer and then pick the best one. I see that you used a different strategy. Also, did you use this method in any other section?

Thank you!


I anticipate the correct answer(s), and then scan through the answer choices to identify those that sound like mine and eliminate those that are obviously wrong. If the process of elimination results in 2 contenders, I analyze both of them to find the better fit, and if the process eliminates 4 out of 5 answer choices, the one remaining must be correct. In the event that I end up eliminating all 5 answer choices, the question must be a tough cookie, and I am forced to actually analyze each of the answer choices. Thankfully, the vast majority of LR questions do not call for this time-consuming measure.
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
HiLine wrote:
I suspect that my experience is rather unique among GMAT takers since my background is different from most, but I thought I should still offer my insights to whomever finds himself in a similar situation, as well as some general advice to the general GMAT community.

When I was in undergrad, I thought of going to law school but ultimately decided against that option a couple of weeks before I took the LSAT in October 2010. Nevertheless, I had spent a good chunk of the summer before senior year studying for the LSAT, and therefore didn't do that poorly. The 163 score placed me near the 90th percentile, a decent achievement but nothing to brag about. With that said, I learned several crucial things from my LSAT experience which comfortably carried over to the GMAT:

1. Great training in logical reasoning. While I did not take a single logic or philosophy class in college, I bought a few logic books over the summer to supplement my LSAT study, and since I heard that logical reasoning was the easiest component of the LSAT to improve on, spent the majority of my study time sharpening my logical reasoning skills. As a result, out of the 51 logical reasoning questions on the actual test, I missed only 3. Thankfully, I did not lose the logical reasoning skills when it came time to study for the GMAT.

2. Great training in analytical writing. I was relieved when I learned how similar GMAT essay questions are to LSAT essay questions. I guess I had paid it forward...

3. Study the hardest questions. I attribute my success on LSAT logical reasoning to my focus on the toughest logical reasoning questions. I bought a collection of toughest logical reasoning questions from a test preparation company, took several pages with me everywhere, and did several questions at a time whenever I had time to kill. I was well aware that the official test would definitely have a few curve balls, and I wanted to be prepared to hit them, as a way to build up my confidence. I employed the same technique in my GMAT study, attempting quite a few of the 100 most difficult questions that members of this forum have gathered. This approach did me wonders.

4. Study real exam questions only. It is well known in the LSAT circle that the only questions you should practice are official, previously published ones. Unlike the GMAT, the LSAT has an abundance of official exam questions from previously administered exams. There is no better way to get acquainted with how exam makers think than to study how they have thought historically. For the GMAT, I ignored all exam questions made by test preparation companies, save for 2 practice tests by Manhattan GMAT and Veritas Prep and the drill questions in the Manhattan GMAT books. After learning the fundamentals from the Manhattan GMAT books, I practiced questions in the Official Guide and questions from the most difficult collections on this forum only.

5. Accuracy first, timing second. Another useful tip I learned from the LSAT community is to make sure you're able to answer questions without any time pressure before starting to time yourself. For the hardest questions I mentioned above, I did not hesitate to spend 15 minutes on one question if that was how long it would take me to be 100% confident about my answer. I knew that if I could answer any single question thrown at me, timing would be merely a matter of practice. Fundamentals should always come first. I employed the same principle in the GMAT study, and encourage everybody to do the same.

6. Overconfidence is poison. I actually took the LSAT twice; the first time, I was overconfident, got killed by the curve balls, and canceled my score in a panic. Never again. When I took my first GMATprep CAT, I got 760. I immediately decided to take a practice test from a different company to really understand where I stood. The 700 on Manhattan GMAT and 730 on Veritas Prep took me back to the ground. My focus continued unabated till the actual exam. The second GMATprep CAT gave me a 770. I was not overconfident walking into the exam room, and got a couple of curve balls as anticipated, but I missed. If given more time to dwell on them, I still would have missed. If I had been given more time to study though, I would have taken more GMATprep CAT's and practiced more questions from the Official Guide. I had less than 3 weeks to study for the test.

7. Improve on what's easier to improve on. As a former actuary, I knew I was not bad at math. The goal was set very early on to score perfectly on the quant section. I used the Manhattan GMAT math books to fill any mathematical knowledge gap and learn techniques that I figured I'd need after learning from the practice tests. My weaknesses were in properties of numbers, probability, and coordinates; therefore, I read the books on these topics and did drill practice questions that looked like I'd need to spend solid time on. Next up, sentence correction. There were very specific mistakes I made on the practice tests; otherwise I knew I was pretty solid on grammar. So I focused on fixing these holes and spent a lot of time on the Manhattan GMAT sentence correction book. I did not touch the reading comprehension book; I did not even have that book because it was missing from my Manhattan GMAT collection. I skimmed through the logical reasoning book to see if there was any kind of question not covered by the LSAT; turned out there was one kind, and it was not difficulty to study for.

8. Try to guess the correct answer before reading the choices. Analyzing each answer choice is a waste of time and mental energy, both of which are crucial for the GMAT.

I will add to the tips as I recall more. I took my test on April 6th 2016, and scored 51 on Quant, 44 on Verbal, 6 on AWA, and 8 on IR. I'd like to thank Manhattan GMAT for producing the helpful study materials, and both Manhattan GMAT and Veritas Prep for making good adaptive practice tests. I'd like to especially thank GMAT Club for the awesome collections of most difficult official questions and for recommending Manhattan GMAT and Veritas Prep.

Let me know if you have any questions!

-HiLine


Can you please walk me though your thought process when you read the sentence correction questions the first time? Is there anything specific that you look for? Completing SC problem within one minute is impressive, so i would love to know how you did it.

Thank you!
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
HiLine : Excellent score mate. Congratulations!!

Since you attribute most of your reasoning skills to LSAT and you used proper materials. How were you able to score a Q 51.? I am not aware as to whether LSAT has got a great quant section too.
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
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Well, congrats for a great score and best of luck with admissions & application process.

My question is related to CR strategy as I am a bit confused. PowerScore CR/LR asks to read the Stimulus first to understand and then read Question Stem and then the answers choices in the order. But, many others ask to read Question Stem first to have an idea that what is being asked (even saw some LSAT trainer saying this on some YT video, apart from GMAT people).

So, what did work for you for the most part of the CR? As per PowerScore for easy questions reading Question Stem may work but for hardest questions and to get high scores, one should go with their strategy to master enough to read in that order well within time.
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Re: 770 (Q51 V44) with prior LSAT experience [#permalink]
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milano10 wrote:

Can you please walk me though your thought process when you read the sentence correction questions the first time? Is there anything specific that you look for? Completing SC problem within one minute is impressive, so i would love to know how you did it.

Thank you!


I look for an error. If there is none, I select answer choice A. If there is one or more, I correct the errors and look for an answer choice that matches my corrected version.

narendran1990 wrote:
HiLine : Excellent score mate. Congratulations!!

Since you attribute most of your reasoning skills to LSAT and you used proper materials. How were you able to score a Q 51.? I am not aware as to whether LSAT has got a great quant section too.


Thanks! I explained this in my post. :wink:

AtifS wrote:
Well, congrats for a great score and best of luck with admissions & application process.

My question is related to CR strategy as I am a bit confused. PowerScore CR/LR asks to read the Stimulus first to understand and then read Question Stem and then the answers choices in the order. But, many others ask to read Question Stem first to have an idea that what is being asked (even saw some LSAT trainer saying this on some YT video, apart from GMAT people).

So, what did work for you for the most part of the CR? As per PowerScore for easy questions reading Question Stem may work but for hardest questions and to get high scores, one should go with their strategy to master enough to read in that order well within time.


Thank you!

I always read the passage before getting to the questions. Always.
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