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Some last year admission stats from admissions411

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greenoak
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Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 05:24
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Hi fellow gmatclubbers,

As my R1 apps are already submitted and panic slowly grows, I has been spending some time at admissions411, studying their last year – i.e. Class 2010 – data. I made some summary tables for the schools from Top 15 (well, in fact from Top 16+LBS) with main statistics (GMAT, Age, Gender, Ethnicity) for those admitted, dinged and others. Perhaps they could be useful for those who are new to this entire B-School thing. See the attached file if you are interested.

Note: I excluded ‘bad entries’ from analysis (those with no GMAT, double entries etc.), so the % might be slightly different from that at admissions411. Also note that the data for ‘other schools’ might be less informative, as very different schools fell within that category.

I certainly know that the data at admissions411 is not representative of the real applicant pool. However, I believe it is representative (somewhat) of the applicants who visit admission forums like our gmatclub. So, this info isn’t completely worthless. I hope. Let me know if you have any questions.

If you are interested, I’ll post some of my observations too.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 06:25
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Thanks pelihu,

Yes, the waiting is killing! Cannot sleep, cannot enjoy the weekend etc. :?

As for the data - I also made the same notes as you. H and S definitely are not an oldie-friendly. And as for UCLA f/m ratio - Kellog has almost the same issue. Btw, I think there is a plausible explanation - see below.

Here are some findings in more detail (sorry for the long post):

1. Toughest US Schools to Get Into
Admit rates are calculated according to the info on admissions411 and are NOT official.
1. Stanford (10.0%)
2. Harvard (12.9%)
3. Wharton (15.9%)
4-5. Berkeley Haas (17.2%)
4-5. MIT Sloan (18.0%)
6. Columbia (22.5%)
7-8. Yale (26.2%)
7-8. Dartmouth Tuck (26.3%)
9-10. UCLA Anderson (28.2%)
9-10. NW Kellogg (28.6%)
11. NYU Stern (30.5%)
12. Chicago GSB (33.6%)
13. Virginia Darden (36.2%)
14. Cornell (38.8%)
15. Duke Fuqua (45.3%)
16. Michigan Ross (51.1%)

2. Schools Which Do Not Like Oldies:
For some schools, the classification was rather subjective… But not for H and S. I agree with pelihu. If you are over 30, you are dead :(

Almost Impossible to Get Into:
Stanford
Harvard

Might Let You In:
Kellogg
NYU Stern
UCLA Anderson
Yale
Dartmouth Tuck (not as oldie-friendly as I used to believe)

Rather Decent Chance for Oldies:
Wharton
Chicago
MIT
Columbia
Berkeley Haas
Duke Fuqua
Michigan
Darden Virginia (though less than people tend to believe…)
Cornell

Overall, once you’ve turned 28, your chances begin to diminish. Those 30+ are at disadvantage even in comparatively oldies-friendly schools.

3. Assorted Theories verified:
‘Wharton sees no difference between 720 and 770’

Wharton GMAT stats:

GMAT N Admitted Admit %
Good (710-730) 16 13,1%
High (740-760) 24 18,3%
Very High (>760) 9 17,6%

Well, technically there is a mild difference, but it is indeed not as pronounced as for, say, Stanford:

Stanford GMAT stats:
GMAT N Admitted Admit %
Average (680-700) 3 5,9%
Good (710-730) 8 8,2%
High (740-760) 10 9,9%
Very High (>760) 9 18,8%

So the statement is true, I think. Although, it definitely matters who exactly has this GMAT in question… no surprise here.

Wharton Ethnicity stats:
N Admitted Admit %
Caucasian 27 15,9%
Indian+Ind.American 1 1,4%
Asian+As.American 15 20,3%
Others or Unknown 18 25,7%

Well, in fact there were 3 Indians admitted, not 1, but as I excluded no-GMAT entries, there is only 1 in the table.

4. Assorted Theories verified:
‘Kellogg is a girlie school’

More of an image thing, but it has interesting consequences. ‘Soft’ Kellogg image makes the school more appealing to females, so they apply there more – and that, as you can imagine, leads to the increasing competition between them. As a result, Kellogg’s admit rate for females is no better than that for males, while at the majority of other Top schools female applicants have better chances than male applicants:

Kellogg Gender stats:
_______________N Admitted___Admit %
Female_____________22________28,9%
Male_______________69________28,5%

Gender stats for all Top 15 (including Kellogg):
________________N Admitted___Admit %
Female____________263______32,6%
Male______________629______22,8%

The only other Top school that seems to have no preference for girls is UCLA:

UCLA Gender stats:
________________N Admitted___Admit %
Female___________8_____________21,1%
Male_____________32____________30,8%

However, there were fewer entries for UCLA, so these stats might be not that accurate.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   Updated on: 26 Oct 2008, 16:02
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riverripper wrote:
but would you want to be in a class where they just took the top applicants without regard for diversity?


Yes, I would wanna be in that class. As an Asian American male, I would rather be in that non diverse class than not be accepted in a diverse class. It is totally unfair if a more qualified candidate is rejected in favor of a less qualified candidate just because the school wants to maintain diversity. Its not my fault that a disproportionate number of smart/more qualified Asian Americans apply to business schools.

Btw, I do agree that the female candidates accepted are not underqualified as well. But just meeting all the requirements doesnt get you an admit from a top b-school!

Originally posted by traffix on 26 Oct 2008, 15:55.
Last edited by traffix on 26 Oct 2008, 16:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 16:21
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nadtrans wrote:
And if u read riveripper's post, he does imply that a female candidate would be accepted over other "top applicants".


Please point out where you feel riverripper says an "inferior" female candidate would get accepted over another "superior" so called "top" male applicant.

nadtrans wrote:
Nope, I meant it from a holistic approach. Come on, u, I and everybody else knows that its easier for a woman / under represented minorities to get an admit than a Caucasian male / Asian American male.


And no, I actually DON'T know if it is easier for a female or underrepresented minority applicant to get accepted to business school. What I, you and everyone else DOES know from sources such as admissions411 is that it is perhaps easier to compensate for a lower GMAT or GPA if you are a female or an underrepresented minority applicant, but you agreed with me that they alone were no indication of an applicant's qualifications for an MBA. Holistically, there is no way [because we don't know what goes on in admissions] for us to find out if it is indeed easier to get admitted to a top business school simply because you are a woman or belong to an underrepresented minority.

It's entirely possible that these female or underrepresented minority candidates bring unique perspectives to the classroom that other Caucasian or Asian-American male applicants do not.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 17:19
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solaris1 wrote:
nadtrans wrote:
It is totally unfair if a more qualified candidate is rejected in favor of a less qualified candidate


And you're judging the "qualifications" of a candidate based on what - GMAT and GPA alone? Sorry, but that's incredibly shortsighted.


I agree. It seems that many people on this thread are very focused on the stats of a candidate. Every elite school identifies candidates to shape a class that will enable each student to learn from a variety of diverse perspectives. These are the types of perspectives a true industry leader must acquire. Sure if you want to go and graduate and crunch numbers for the rest of your life and never be a successful executive or CEO, I can see why you would have this view. But if you have true leadership aspirations, you would understand the value of having a diverse class.

I wouldn't apply to a school that had mostly one gender, one race, 750+ GMAT scores and 4.0 GPAs. What would you learn?

On that note, every woman I know in a top MBA program is on par if not above many of the profiles on this board. Be careful when you stereotype. Assuming that admissions committees consist of mostly women is fine - keep it to yourself, but stating it publicly is unintelligent. I hope that I don't join a class that has such immature views and tact.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   27 Oct 2008, 05:26
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When I posted this info I thought only about giving some insights about the specifics of admissions in certain schools – and even then, very careful insights because the data is not representative. However, the discussion has obviously gone too far from its initial goal when we started to argue about ‘unfairness’ of the admission decision.

I'm afraid this way is leading nowhere. The problem is the very mechanics of the admission process makes it an easy target for blame: unfairness will always seem to be there.

Let’s say we have A, B, and C groups of people; the basis for classification does not matter for this example. They have a certain distribution among population, say, A - 40%, B - 30%, C - 30%. However, among applicants, the situation is not the same: A has 40%, B – 10%, C – 50%. In addition to it, there is a market demand, which wants to see, say, A - 60%, B - 15%, C - 25%. And also, there could be some promoted cultural values, according to which there should be A - 33%, B - 33%, C - 33%.

So, which distribution business school has to follow in its admission decisions? Most probably, it sticks to the mixture of all these distributions when creating its quotas. Some schools give more weight to market factor, some to cultural values factor, etc. – that’s why we see differences in the admission policies among schools. But the matter is that the final quota upon which bschool bases its decisions is different both from natural popular distribution and from the distribution among applicants. In reality, the situation is even more complicated because there are more groups and they could intercept – but the principle of decision, I believe, is the same.

Naturally, such an approach would seem unfair – both to those who believes that ‘equal chances’ means equal for each applicant AND to those who believes that ‘equal chances’ means equal chances for any person if he/she chooses to apply. You can imagine that from the market point of view, bschool quota may be not up to the employers desires too. But that’s how it works. Whether it is right or wrong we could discuss endlessly – as well as the nature of the reasons why market wants 60% of group A and only 25% of C.

With respect to all participants of the discussion, I suggest that we keep this thread to the discussion of the factual aspects of admissions: stating that a certain trend exists but not trying to blame/defend the reasons for its existence or the fairness of the trend itself. Perhaps it will be more constructive in that way.

Good luck with your applications! May we all win in the R1 waiting game!
And thanks for reading this long post :)
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   27 Oct 2008, 10:08
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this thread started with greenoak doing some number crunching and exersing his grey cells beyond the essays and look where its got us!

i am a female and its worked to my advantage during my undergrad (got into a decent school and paid 1/3rd the tution compared to others (mostly male)).I'm not ecstatic bout it.

To me , equality of opportunity is of utmost importance which I think the b-school admission process does give. There is no cap on eligibility and everyone has an equal oportunity to put their best foot forward.

Decisions should be based on merit and merit can definately not be calculated based merely on GPA, GMAT, no. of awards, amnt of $$ you secured for your company, $$ you make, sex, ethnicity etc. Its also about the personality and thought process.

To ensure diversity schools should encourage diverse applicants which they definately are doing. Based on these endeavors the % of women, minorities are going up which is great! I remeber specifically asking the Stern adcom if they allow any kind of dilution just to keep the % of women to 40 and he was pretty emphatic in saying no.
Although Cornell is pretty gung ho rite now on increasing the % of women to arnd 50 I am sure they are not going to compromise on the calibre. The women I know at Cornell are definately not merely adding to the "diversity". They have awesome personalities and awesome experience.

I don think we'll ever have a fool proof system in place because this is can be a very subjective process (common we are asked to choose our recs and choose those who'll only say the best about us!!!!). I just hope some well deserving candidate does not lose out and some mediocre applicant does not waste away this awesome opportunity.

May the best APPLICANT(s) win.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 05:33
Kudos+1.

I see that the % of Asians admitted at Fuqua is high(28%) whereas it is nill at Stanford.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 06:02
fall09 wrote:
I see that the % of Asians admitted at Fuqua is high(28%) whereas it is nill at Stanford.


I think you mean Indians. Yes, it's very tough for them; I even did not imagine how tough until I saw these numbers. For other Asians (Chinese, Korean etc), situation is much better. I believe there is a small number of Indians even at Stanford, but I noticed that many Indian applicants choose not to provide full information. For example, there was technically 3 Indian admits for Wharton, but in these tables there is only 1, because two others reported zero GMAT and so were excluded from analysis. Also, a greater share of Indians do not post the final decision. But the trend is still the same :(
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 06:05
Ahh, the days of over-analyzing the data at admissions411 - a sure mark that people are getting really anxious. Very nice job aggregating the data - definitely a lot of hard work. Even though the data is self-reported, you can start to see some interesting trends.

Has Stanford really not admitted anyone (again, self-reported) over the age of 30? Of the 49 data points, 23 dinged and 26 unknown...WOW! And look at Harvard and Stanford. Substantially different average ages reporting admits compared with both their overall application pools and with other schools, and sharply lower admit rates with each older age group. Pretty staggering actually. If you're over 30 you're just about dead to them.

Lowest average GMAT for admits seems to be at NYU by a statistically relevant margin (as much as self-reported statistics can be relevant). Guess the opportunity to head to NY and getting access to all those Wall Street jobs has lost some allure; or perhaps New Yorkers joining the b-school fray want to get away from the despair there.

Admit rates are higher for women than men at every school except for UCLA - wonder what's going on there. Also, check out the differences at MIT & Wharton, approaching 3x higher admit rates for women.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 07:13
wow thanks so much for putting this together! It's still good to see trends!!
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 07:32
I'd be careful drawing too many conclusions from that data.

For example, only 61 reported accepts for Wharton. Considering the class is ~800 in size and the yield rate is ~70%, that's only a 5% sample and not a very random one.

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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 07:37
thanks for the effort +1
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 07:47
refurb wrote:
I'd be careful drawing too many conclusions from that data.
For example, only 61 reported accepts for Wharton. Considering the class is ~800 in size and the yield rate is ~70%, that's only a 5% sample and not a very random one.
RF


I completely agree with you, refurb, and I included the note about the data being non representative in my first post. So this info is just for general interest, but not for those seeking The Great Admission Truth :)
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 08:20
+1! Great job and interesting analysis!

I'm just a bit depressed to find out I'll be as good as dead within less than a year.... :shock:
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 08:41
greenoak wrote:
I completely agree with you, refurb, and I included the note about the data being non representative in my first post. So this info is just for general interest, but not for those seeking The Great Admission Truth :)


Good job collating all that data.

Obviously the data does support some of the stereotypes of various schools (Havard like 'em young).

RF
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 09:20
I've always been wary of the data on admissions411. For one thing the data points are so few that its really hard to draw conclusions about acceptance rates, etc.

Also, the data is a little acceptance-heavy, and its also indian-applicant-heavy. As someone of Indian decent, I know people who went to almost all of these B-schools, but admissions411 would have you believe that its nearly impossible for me to get in. I understand that many of the Indian applicants are IT/Software people so they're fighting over a handful of spots, but I also think that the data on this website is going to be focused around people who find it necessary to forecast their chances to get in, so it lends itself to the Indian IT crowd being over-represented on admissions411.
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 09:31
so from what i see, if you are a female, below the age of 25 and have an avg gmat score, you are more likely to get into an Ultra-Elite than a White Caucasian male over the age of 29 with a very high gmat score...and no wonder our economy is totally F--ed up..cause all these 25 years old who have no clue on how to run companies..get to hbs and become my boss..

not to be sexiest, just find it weird that we have compromised too much on merit for gender equality...maybe it has to do with that most of the adcom are women???
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 09:43
fresinha12 wrote:
not to be sexiest, just find it weird that we have compromised too much on merit for gender equality...maybe it has to do with that most of the adcom are women???


This is gonna be interesting!! :)

RF
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink] New post   26 Oct 2008, 09:54
refurb wrote:
fresinha12 wrote:
not to be sexiest, just find it weird that we have compromised too much on merit for gender equality...maybe it has to do with that most of the adcom are women???


This is gonna be interesting!! :)

RF



you know what i am tired of being politically correct..what happened to saying it as it is..
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Re: Some last year admission stats from admissions411 [#permalink]
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