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Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still

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Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still [#permalink]

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16 Feb 2005, 18:13
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663. Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still standing, demonstrating that with sound design and maintenance, wooden buildings can last indefinitely.
(A) standing, demonstrating that with sound design and maintenance, wooden buildings can last indefinitely
(B) standing, demonstrating how wooden buildings, when they have sound design and maintenance, can last indefinitely
(C) standing; they demonstrate if a wooden building has sound design and maintenance it can last indefinitely
(D) standing, and they demonstrate wooden buildings can last indefinitely when there is sound design and maintenance
(E) standing, and they demonstrate how a wooden building can last indefinitely when it has sound design and maintenance

Please post your answer if you can explain why each choice is right or wrong or POE.
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16 Feb 2005, 18:42
I pick (E).

A and B are out because they make it sound as if the churches are humans demonstrating
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16 Feb 2005, 18:51
The additive 'and' is not really required here.
(B) and (C) has a strange sentence construction.
(A) seems to be the best choice.
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16 Feb 2005, 19:10
(B)...

(A) is wrong.
Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still standing, demonstrating that with sound design and maintenance, wooden buildings can last indefinitely.

If we remove portion within paranthesis, sentence is incomplete.

(B) seems gramatically correct but it distorts the meaning slightly. Still, (B) is best.
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16 Feb 2005, 19:19
A) Good use of Participle.

The another choice that comes as a possible candidate is E. But E is wrong, here is why:

E) The building don't demonstrate how wooden buildings can last long. It just demonstrates that the building last long that's all!
The use of how changes the meaning.

Other choices have pronoun problems and/or bad use of conditionals.
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16 Feb 2005, 20:06
A.

here the absolute participial clause begining with 'demonstrating' modifies the fact conveyed in the dependent clause "Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still standing".

B - improper use of 'when', typically only used to modify time. Also the first clause is not explaining how the churches last indefinitely.

C - improper use of semi colon.

D/E - mixed tense error and the churches didnt demonstrate.
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16 Feb 2005, 20:25
prep_gmat wrote:
A.

here the absolute participial clause begining with 'demonstrating' modifies the fact conveyed in the dependent clause "Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still standing".

B - improper use of 'when', typically only used to modify time. Also the first clause is not explaining how the churches last indefinitely.

C - improper use of semi colon.

D/E - mixed tense error and the churches didnt demonstrate.

can you plz elaborate on absolute participial clause?
S
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16 Feb 2005, 20:39
nocilis/prep_gmat

Is the "," after maintenance correct??

Should the sentence not be sth like this (to be correct):

Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still standing, demonstrating that,(comma here) with sound design and maintenance, wooden buildings can last indefinitely.
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16 Feb 2005, 21:19
I am no comma expert but A seems correct in its use of "," in my opinion

* If you add comma after that you are reducing the flow of this sentence.

* You need a comma after 'maintenance' as this is of the form:

Dependent clause, Independent clause

with sound design and maintenance, wooden buildings can last indefinitely.
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16 Feb 2005, 21:54
While B,C, D and E are out as demonstrated by prep_gmat and nocilis, I just want to describe A's structure and how it is good. A has a complex sentence structure which has a first layer looking like this:

Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still standing, demonstrating X

The first portion before the comma is the independent clause followed by the portion in blue, an absolute phrase. An absolute phrase does not modify any word in particular: it modifies the whole sentence that either precedes or follows it. Therefore, it is not the churches which demonstrate anything. Instead, it is the fact that they are still standing which demonstrate X.

Now, the absolute phrase in and of itself has a sub-structure which looks like this:
[...]demonstrating that with sound design and maintenance, wooden buildings can last indefinitely

In red is a prepositional phrase which if you remove, you are left with:
[...]demonstrating that wooden buildings can last indefinitely.
As we see, the absolute phrase has within itself a restrictive clause, in green, introduced by "that". The comma mentioned by jpv is necessary in order to separate the prepositional away from the split restrictive clause. Try to read the second half of the sentence without that comma and you will wonder whether "wooden buildings can last indefinitely" is part of the prepositional phrase. It just does not sound kosher
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16 Feb 2005, 22:10
Oops with sound design and maintenance is not a clause but a prep phrase .. duh!
You still need the comma between this prep phrase and wooden buildings can last indefinitely

Paul, I am not following the use of comma after that though.

When that is usually used as a link between two Independent clauses

He said that I am strong

Here, we don't use a comma after that although I am strong is a restrictive information.

EDIT:
On Rereading your comment, I see what you are saying.... It is the prep phrase that makes the comma a requirement after that.
If the sentence did not have prep phrase as in

... demonstrating that wooden buildings can last indefinitely
you don't need a comma after that.
Am I understanding you correctly?
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16 Feb 2005, 22:37
Yes, the "edit" made sense.
Taking your example with a slight modification to fit the context:

He said that I will do fine

Add a prepositional phrase to the above:

He said that with a little luck and much studying, I will do fine

Same structure. The comma is just better because it allows to set the prepositional phrase from the split restrictive clause so as to not make the sentence too intertwined. In shorter, less complicated sentences, however, the comma could be omitted.

He said that with some luck I will do fine

See that the comma is omitted here because the prepositional phrase is simple enough.
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16 Feb 2005, 22:58
Paul, You Rock!.
I was trying to explain it and now I know it is the split restrictive clause.
Thanks.
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17 Feb 2005, 06:08
Paul wrote:
Yes, the "edit" made sense.
Taking your example with a slight modification to fit the context:

He said that I will do fine

Add a prepositional phrase to the above:

He said that with a little luck and much studying, I will do fine

Same structure. The comma is just better because it allows to set the prepositional phrase from the split restrictive clause so as to not make the sentence too intertwined. In shorter, less complicated sentences, however, the comma could be omitted.

He said that with some luck I will do fine

See that the comma is omitted here because the prepositional phrase is simple enough.

Paul, I am again confused :

which one is correct??
He said that with a little luck and much studying, I will do fine OR
He said that ,(comma here) with a little luck and much studying, I will do fine OR
He said that with a little luck and much studying I will do fine

According to ur previous post, I gathered that we need comma to segregate Prepositional Phrase from Split Restrictive Clause. So, according to that Second and Third sentence should be correct but NOT First. Am I right???
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17 Feb 2005, 07:42
What I meant was that comma at the end of the prepositional phrase was preferred to separate it from whatever clause it is embedded within. The presence of the comma at the beginning of the prepositional phrase is not required and even seems cumbersome by introducing an unecessary pause. For compound prepositional phrases, use a comma at the end: 1st example would be best. For simple prepositional phrase, no such comma is required. Again, what I really mean is that the presence of the comma is not a flaw but the lack of it would not necessary be an error.
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17 Feb 2005, 19:29
I got it what u r trying to say..

This is what I found from http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/commas_intro.htm

When a prepositional phrase expands to more than three words, say, or becomes connected to yet another prepositional phrase, the use of a comma will depend on the writer's sense of the rhythm and flow of the sentence.

* After his nap Figueroa felt better.
* After his long nap (no comma) in the backyard hammock, Figueroa felt better.

Thanks Paul..
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18 Feb 2005, 01:26
Paul wrote:
While B,C, D and E are out as demonstrated by prep_gmat and nocilis, I just want to describe A's structure and how it is good. A has a complex sentence structure which has a first layer looking like this:

Some of the tenth-century stave churches of Norway are still standing, demonstrating X

The first portion before the comma is the independent clause followed by the portion in blue, an absolute phrase. An absolute phrase does not modify any word in particular: it modifies the whole sentence that either precedes or follows it. Therefore, it is not the churches which demonstrate anything. Instead, it is the fact that they are still standing which demonstrate X.

Now, the absolute phrase in and of itself has a sub-structure which looks like this:
[...]demonstrating that with sound design and maintenance, wooden buildings can last indefinitely

In red is a prepositional phrase which if you remove, you are left with:
[...]demonstrating that wooden buildings can last indefinitely.
As we see, the absolute phrase has within itself a restrictive clause, in green, introduced by "that". The comma mentioned by jpv is necessary in order to separate the prepositional away from the split restrictive clause. Try to read the second half of the sentence without that comma and you will wonder whether "wooden buildings can last indefinitely" is part of the prepositional phrase. It just does not sound kosher

This was a brilliant explanation. Thanks, it cleared my concept on prepositional phrases.
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01 Sep 2005, 01:51
yay! I picked A too. is that he OA?

paul, brilliant explanation.
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01 Sep 2005, 01:59
Please explain your answers. Especially I would like to know why C is wrong?
S
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11 Sep 2005, 04:08
In my humble opinion, choice C is wrong as in the conditional statements when condition indicates present tense and if it is present real conditional , then the clause following it should be in future tense. However if it is in present unreal conditional then there should be in "Would" + verb. Although it does not follow any of the above mentioned rules and use the "can" word indicating potentiality that is wrong in conditional cases.

Example: If a wooden building has sound design (then) it will last indefinitely. This is correct example.

Choice B is wrong also as it demonstrate with when clause that buildings is possessing sound design and maintenance which is not the idea it wants to convey. Also keep in mind that more often than not "demonstrate + that" is correct in the answer choices.

Choice D is wrong as mentioned in the esteemed posts earlier that there is no need of additives "and" with commas.

Choice E same as choice D. Further if you notice GMAT always make the comparision same. In choice C and Choice E it should be noted that there is "a wooden building" mentioned. However in non underlined portion it is wooden buildings.

Choice A wonderful explanation has been given by Paul. Please review the paul's post.

I hope it helps.
11 Sep 2005, 04:08

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