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# The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun

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Re: help o clear doub sc  [#permalink]

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25 Oct 2015, 00:18
2
E is a simple subject-verb issue. It should be each . . . dates.

In B, "have dated" doesn't make sense. Dating in this sense is not something they have actually done. It's just a way of describing how old they are. We'd say "This legend dates back to the 12th century," not "This legend has dated back to the 12th century." (This issue also rules out C, with "has dated.")

D is just not a sentence. It links a modifier to the main clause with "and," and that doesn't work.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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06 Sep 2016, 09:02
pqhai wrote:
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.

B. both of which have dated
Wrong. "which" should modifies the closest noun --> "which" modifies "communities", not "Acoma & Hopi" --> Wrong.

- of which - is a prepositional phrase and not a which clause. Therefore, which in this sentence is not modifying "communities". It is modifying "Both".
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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25 Dec 2016, 01:06
I look at the word in a dictionary and see that
date back
means
have existed since.

so, this verb is used only in present time because its meaning is similar in meaning in present perfect. I think this verb is used only in present time. not in any time.

am i correct.

can this verb is used in the past tense. ?
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The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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28 May 2017, 05:02
sondenso wrote:
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.

(A) both dating
(B) both of which have dated
(C) and each has dated
(D) and each one dating
(E) each one of which date

From Ron (Manhattan Prep)

(c) and (d) are incorrect because of the word "and"; the sentence is not presenting two separate, independent facts, so "and" is inappropriate as a conjunction.

(b) and (c) are incorrect because of the tense used; "has dated" implies that this is not the case anymore. (this particular construction really only makes sense in the present tense -- or as an -ing modifier attached to a present-tense clause, since -ing modifiers adopt the tense of the clause to which they are attached.)

(e) has subject-verb disagreement ("each one of which" must be singular).

(d) uses complete sentence + comma + "and", a conjunction that should be followed by another independent clause. since "dating" isn't a verb, that second half is a fragment.

GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo Could you help to explain "VERBing - dating" in this problem? Why "dating" is placed after the pronoun "both"? What is being modified here?
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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02 Jun 2017, 14:52
1
hazelnut wrote:
GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo Could you help to explain "VERBing - dating" in this problem? Why "dating" is placed after the pronoun "both"? What is being modified here?

The -ing modifier ("dating") modifies "communities" -- and the adverb "both" modifies "dating." In other words, both the Acoma community and the Hopi community date back at least a thousand years, and the word placement isn't a problem at all.
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The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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06 Jun 2017, 23:36
Hi GMATNinja,

Can you please explain why the tense used is incorrect here? My understanding about present perfect tense is - An action that begins in the past and continues to the present. But in the explanation given above its mentioned that '"has dated" implies that this is not the case anymore (this particular construction really only makes sense in the present tense -- or as an -ing modifier attached to a present-tense clause, since -ing modifiers adopt the tense of the clause to which they are attached.)'.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 00:59
Imo A .
But not sure
Which in B is ambiguous .
The is one more doubt I have .
If in option D we remove one will it be correct then.?

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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 07:42
hazelnut wrote:
GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo Could you help to explain "VERBing - dating" in this problem? Why "dating" is placed after the pronoun "both"? What is being modified here?

Hello hazelnut,

Although your question has already been answered, I would like to present to you how at e-GMAT we treat the modifier both dating back at least a thousand years.

We call this modifier Noun + Noun Modifier in which both = Noun and dating back at least a thousand years = Noun Modifier. Well, technically both is a pronoun. But since it refers to a noun entity, it is used in the Noun + Noun Modifier structure in the place of Noun as we see in this official sentence.

A Noun + Noun Modifier can modify any noun in the preceding clause or even the entire preceding. The modification by this modifier depends upon the context of the sentence.

In this official sentence, the Noun + Noun Modifier both dating back at least a thousand years modifies the noun The Acoma and Hopi.

For all the details, explanations, and examples (official sentences included) pertaining to the Noun + Noun Modifiers, please review our article named Noun + Noun Modifiers: The most "versatile" modifier in the following link:

https://gmatclub.com/forum/noun-noun-modifiers-the-most-versatile-modifier-137292.html

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 07:57
2
Vyshak wrote:
Hi GMATNinja,

Can you please explain why the tense used is incorrect here? My understanding about present perfect tense is - An action that begins in the past and continues to the present. But in the explanation given above its mentioned that '"has dated" implies that this is not the case anymore (this particular construction really only makes sense in the present tense -- or as an -ing modifier attached to a present-tense clause, since -ing modifiers adopt the tense of the clause to which they are attached.)'.

Hello Vyshak,

The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.

It is a general fact about the two communities mentioned in the official sentence above that these communities are at least a thousand years old, a fact that cannot be changed or will not remain true in the time to come. Hence, this fact must be written either in simple present tense verb or in the form of verb-ing modifier as we in this sentence.

When an event is written in present perfect tense, it denotes that the event may change in the future.

We say: Sun rises in the east because this fact is never going to change. If we say: Sun has risen in the east, the sentence will mean that in present the Sun is rising in the east. But in future it may not do so.

For this reason, usage of has dated back (present perfect tense) does not work in the context pf this official sentence.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 08:08
2
arvind910619 wrote:
Imo A .
But not sure
Which in B is ambiguous .
The is one more doubt I have .
If in option D we remove one will it be correct then.?

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Hello arvind910619,

Let's take a look at the sentence with Choice D inserted in it.

The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, and each one dating back at least a thousand years.

Even if we remove one from the above mentioned sentence, it will stand incorrect because and is preceded by a comma. This means that we need an independent clause after comma + and. But there is no verb for the subject each as dating cannot act as verb as it is not preceded by any helping verb such is/was etc. Hence, this choice is incorrect.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 09:21
sondenso wrote:
The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities, both dating back at least a thousand years.

(A) both dating
(B) both of which have dated
(C) and each has dated
(D) and each one dating
(E) each one of which date

A) both dating = both of which dates

B) "both of which dates" would be correct.

C & D) "and each dates" would be correct.

E) "each one of which dates" would be correct.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 23:21
1
Vyshak wrote:
Can you please explain why the tense used is incorrect here?

Hi Vyshak, the issue is not as much of tense as of voice.

B says that both communities have dated. This is active voice.

This is incorrect because the communities cannot date themselves; clearly, someone else has dated them.

So, the correct usage would be the one using passive voice: both of which have been dated
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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07 Jun 2017, 23:28
Option A sound right but option C is also looking somewhat similar.
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The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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08 Jun 2017, 01:56
EducationAisle wrote:
Vyshak wrote:
Can you please explain why the tense used is incorrect here?

Hi Vyshak, the issue is not as much of tense as of voice.

B says that both communities have dated. This is active voice.

This is incorrect because the communities cannot date themselves; clearly, someone else has dated them.

So, the correct usage would be the one using passive voice: both of which have been dated

I disagree.

date back to can be used both actively and passively.

An example from Collins:

The brooch dates back to the fourth century BC.

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The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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08 Jun 2017, 03:28
tireks wrote:
date back to can be used both actively and passively.

An example from Collins:

The brooch dates back to the fourth century BC.

Hi tireks, this is not the same usage. The sentence under consideration uses dated at. Hence, we should be looking at the usages of dated (as a past participle) and not dates (as a verb).

Also, if you could cite an official example, that might be more useful.
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The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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27 Jun 2017, 23:37
GMATNinja wrote:
hazelnut wrote:
GMATNinja & GMATNinjaTwo Could you help to explain "VERBing - dating" in this problem? Why "dating" is placed after the pronoun "both"? What is being modified here?

The -ing modifier ("dating") modifies "communities" -- and the adverb "both" modifies "dating." In other words, both the Acoma community and the Hopi community date back at least a thousand years, and the word placement isn't a problem at all.

Hi GMATNinja,

As per your explanation "both" is an adverb modifying dating. And we know that COMMA + -ING modifier always modifies the entire previous clause. But I am not able to understand how "dating... " can modify the previous clause. I see no relation of -ING modifier to the verb of the previous clause. Can you please explain? Thanks a ton!!
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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28 Jun 2017, 17:56
1
Quote:
And we know that COMMA + -ING modifier always modifies the entire previous clause.

Not always. "-ing" modifiers can modify an entire clause... or just a noun (see the explanation by egmat above). We could argue that "dating" modifies the Acoma and Hopi, or that it modifies "communities" -- but the difference between those two isn't terribly important, because those two are the same in this sentence, anyway.

I hope this helps!
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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28 Jun 2017, 19:01
Thanks a lot GMATNinja
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun  [#permalink]

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29 Jun 2017, 10:01
2
yt770 wrote:
As per your explanation "both" is an adverb modifying dating. And we know that COMMA + -ING modifier always modifies the entire previous clause. But I am not able to understand how "dating... " can modify the previous clause. I see no relation of -ING modifier to the verb of the previous clause. Can you please explain? Thanks a ton!!

Hi yt770, there is correlation between the participial phrase (both dating back...) and the previous clause.

The clause states that the Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo communities; subsequently, the participial phrase elaborates to what extent these communities are old: both date back at least a thousand years.

On the other hand, had the sentence been (say):

The Acoma and Hopi considered children born into the mother's clan, both dating back at least a thousand years.

In this sentence, there is indeed no correlation between the clause and the participial phrase. Hence, use of participial phrase would be incorrect here.

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses these issues with participial phrases, their application and examples in significant detail. If someone is interested, PM me your email-id; I can mail the corresponding section.
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Re: The Acoma and Hopi are probably the two oldest surviving Pueblo commun &nbs [#permalink] 29 Jun 2017, 10:01

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