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The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 05 Feb 2013, 05:52
Why don't we need "that" after trenches ?
We can use THAT after trenches (as in the case of option A & B) . We can use either relative clause or participle (among others) to modify a noun. It's not specific modifier that matters but the meaning of the sentence.
that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

Both of the above colored portion are CORRECTLY modifying noun TRENCHES. But there are other error present in option A & B. The Errors are as follows:-
(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but -
Evidence prove that societies AROSE (at one point of time in the past) but the evidences do not prove in any way the period/ process of evolution.
(In simple words, if we want to indicate a simple action in the past, use simple past tense as GMAT prefers simplicity & concision)

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also -
Evidence prove that societies AROSE (at one point of time in the past) but the evidences do not prove in any way the period/ process of evolution. (In simple words, if we want to indicate a simple action in the past, use simple past tense as GMAT prefers simplicity & concision)
Simple present is generally used for facts, truth etc, thus use of YIELDS is incorrect over here


I hope this explanation will help you.

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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targetgmatchotu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.
(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but


Have issues with the use of "that",I have read forums for the discussion about this one.
Although I accept that "evidence for" is wrongly used and "evidence that" is the right usage, some discussions said about the use of "that"
Why don't we need "that" after trenches ?
How do we know that author is talking about "first trenches" or he is talking about the "first trenches that were cut into"?
And for the second "that" used after "Middle East" is there any reason why it is wrongly used other than that it modifies "middle east" ,although it should have modified "societies"

I'm happy to help with this. :-) This is SC#70 from the OG13.

The opening choices ------
"The first trenches that were cut ...." ----- this modifies "trenches" with a subordinate clause, a clause beginning with "that". This is perfectly correct.
"The first trenches having been cut ...." --- participle with a strange tense, not correct
"The first trenches cut ...." ---- as fameatop pointed out above, this is participial phrase, also 100% correct. For more on participial phrases, see:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/participle ... -the-gmat/

The difference between this would be like the difference between
(a) The horse that was traded for an electric guitar was now .....
(b) The horse, traded for an electric guitar, was now ....
(a) is a "that" clause construction, (b) is a participial construction, and both are correct.

You see, grammar is complex. You can just memorize a simple rule like don't drop the word "that" ----- There are two very different "that" clauses to consider.

Category #1: relative clauses
This is what appears in this sentence. Here, the word "that" acting as a relative pronoun -- others include who, whom, whoever, etc. Within the relative clause, the relative pronoun acts as a pronoun within the clause, often the subject of the clause. Let's look at (A) from the prompt ---- the relative clause is in green.
(1) The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria have yielded ...
Within that clause, the pronoun "that" is the subject of the clause, the subject of the verb "were cut."
Other examples includes
(2) The horse that was traded for an electric guitar was now ....
(3) The regions of Europe that Julius Caesar conquered were not .....
In #2, the word "that" is also the subject of the clause, now the subject of the verb "was traded." In #3, the word "that" is the direct object of the verb "conquered."

Nobody drops the "that" from a relative clause ----- since "that" is acts as a pronoun in the clause, it always sound terribly awkward to drop a pronoun. Pick any sentence with a pronoun, and say the sentence without the pronoun --- it will sound bizarre and incomplete Nobody makes this mistake. The dropping the "that" mistake is never a concern with relative clauses.

Category #2: substantive clauses
For more on this structure, read these two posts:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/substantiv ... -the-gmat/
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-idiom ... ieve-that/
This is what we have following the word "evidence" in the SC sentence above ---- evidence that ..., know that ...., hope that ...., wish that ...., believe that ..... hypothesis that .... etc. etc. etc.
Here, the word "that" is followed by a full [noun] + [verb] clause. Examples, with substantive clause in green ----
(4) .... evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.
(5) The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal.
(6) The senator said that he will not seek reelection.
In all three cases, what follows "that" is a full clause --- in each case, we could extract the green section, throw away the word "that", and the rest of the green part could stand on its own as a full complete sentence. Here, the word "that" is NOT acting as a pronoun --- rather, it is serving to introduce a full clause. Because the word "that" plays no essential role within the clause, it is very tempting to drop it --- in fact, people do all the time in casual conversation, and the GMAT always tests this. This is where one has to have one's antennae up, looking for this very predictable mistake.

Does all this make sense?

Mike :-)
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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Your explantion Mike is outstanding but in my opinion who study Sentence Correction more clinically than logically tend to struggle because their view becomes too technical.

I admit the importance and the distinction among the rules to clarify and consolidate the concepts.

however, on the upper level question to catch the gist of the sentence is more important.

Grammar rules lead you to the next level but after some point if you rely too much on rules, you lose the compass.

I didn't ask to myself where "that" standed for and the significance of it.

I understood that "cut" was the key and D was ackward and wrong because if you read the entire sentence it unfolds not so clearly.

Otherwise A student could be stuck in a limbo for endless time. my personal opinion, acceptable or not

For the rest thanks for the super super super amazing explanation :)

To completely understand what I mean here an article (it is like a windfall in this situation) from brian galvin - veritas prep

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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jerrywu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but



The first trenches call for a plural verb. Hence, B and D are out.
The sentence also meant that complex societies arose simultaneously with but independently. We need the preposition with. Hence, C is out.
Between A and E, that were cut is rather wordy compared to in E.

answer: e
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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New post 21 Feb 2013, 13:49
I don't think that is an idiom. It is used to signify two opposing ideas. Here simultaneously describes a property of arose. It tells us how the complex societies in northern regions of the middle east arose. It arose simultaneously with the city states of Mesopotamia. However, the part after but "independently of" tries to tell us that even though it grew along with the Mesopotamian states, its growth was independent of any help from Mesopotamia. Because they represent two contrasting ideas they are joined by a "but".

Hope this explains!

abmyers wrote:
Can someone explain the idiom at the end of E, "complex societies in northern regions of the middle east arose simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated..."

I can't think of when I have ever heard this idiom....with but...

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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Can some one explain "why A is wrong"?.

E: States: Trenches cut into a 500-acre site . How can Trenches cut themselves?
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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greatps24 wrote:
Can some one explain "why A is wrong"?.

E: States: Trenches cut into a 500-acre site . How can Trenches cut themselves?


Hi greatps24,

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(A) is incorrect because of two reasons, "evidence for" is incorrect and "that" in the relative clause "that were arising simultaneously.." may either refer to "northern regions" or "centrally administered societies". The correct answer choice (E) express this clearly and concisely.

"The trenches cut into a 500-acre" is not implying that the "The trenches" cut themselves.

For example.

The apple cut into four pieces is being loved by all.

Actually the sentence is saying "The apple that was cut into four pieces is being loved by all"

We can drop the "that was" part without changing the meaning of the sentence.

consider one more example: Both the sentences convey the same thing; however, the first one will be better because of concision.

The movies produced by Steven Spielberg are unique in their cinematographic techniques.

The movies that are produced by Steven Spielberg are unique in their cinematographic techniques.


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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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New post 07 Apr 2013, 10:58
Hi
i have doubt with option E.
"cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but"
"The first trenches cut into........." is a clause.
I think cut is a verb for the subject "first trenches"......Now in the same sentence, another verb "have yielded" too stands fr the subject "The first trenches"
So my doubt is hwo can there be two verb fr the same subject, when there is no connector.

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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Archit143 wrote:
Hi
i have doubt with option E.
"cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but"
"The first trenches cut into........." is a clause.
I think cut is a verb for the subject "first trenches"......Now in the same sentence, another verb "have yielded" too stands fr the subject "The first trenches"
So my doubt is hwo can there be two verb fr the same subject, when there is no connector.

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"cut into a 500 acre ..." is a modifier. It modifies 'trenches' i.e. it tells you more about the trenches.
As pointed out by Vercules above, "cut into a 500 acre" can be replaced by "that were cut into a 500 acre". The meaning doesn't change but you can see clearly that "cut into..." is modifying trenches.
The verb is 'have yielded'.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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VeritasPrepKarishma wrote:
"cut into a 500 acre ..." is a modifier. It modifies 'trenches' i.e. it tells you more about the trenches.


Karishma,
I saw many posts but nobody mentions the use of modifier in this question. You're the fist and You're absolutely correct.
Thanks.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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2013gmat wrote:

1)that were cut(verb)
2)cut into(modifier)

then which one should I choose? and are there any specific rules for that???

Thanks for your help always


First, meaning is key to solve this question
The trenches cut into something (Active voice)
--OR--
The trenches were cut into something? (Passive voice)

Clearly, the trenches only cut into something (how the trenches were cut (passive voice) into something? :?: )

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
Wrong. Passive voice is wrong.

B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
Wrong.
Same as in A. --> Passive voice is wrong.
Trenches is plural --> "yields" is wrong.
Wrong idiom: but also (the correct one is: not only... but also)

C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
Wrong. "having been cut" is ungrammatical.

D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
Wrong idiom: but also (the correct one is: not only... but also)

E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
Correct.
Active voice "the trenches cut into something" <-- correct.
Contrast meaning: arose simultaneously with but independently.... <-- correct.

Hope it helps.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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The first trenches ...

that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

Contd...have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East

that( Refers to societies) were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

I have a question regarding the idiom "Evidence that", "Evidence for" and "Evidence of". Evidence that is the right idiom? It was between A and E ( I eliminated A cos it was passive voice) Others had subject-verb agreement issues ( yields)

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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Let me give a different perspective about the use of active and passive voices here.
Quote:
The trenches that were cut
The trenches cut

IMO, both the above are passive voices. One may say that first one is wordier by two words. You might see that a trench has to be cut by somebody. It cannot cut itself or cut another. The cut is used in the sense of a past participle and not past tense at best; one may say that the first is wordier by two words
So whenever you use trench with the verb cut, it will always be in passive. However a trench can run along some route, when it will be in active voice. I hope this difference is realized
Therefore the reason that A is wrong is because of that idiom, evidence for; evidence that is the accepted idiom, So E wins.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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nelz007 wrote:
The first trenches ...

that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

Contd...have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East

that( Refers to societies) were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

I have a question regarding the idiom "Evidence that", "Evidence for" and "Evidence of". Evidence that is the right idiom? It was between A and E ( I eliminated A cos it was passive voice) Others had subject-verb agreement issues ( yields)


Hi Nelson,

Let me address your confusion regarding the above mentioned usages of “evidence” with simple examples.

a. The police found evidence that Syrio was present at the crime scene when the crime happened.
b. The police found evidence for Syrio was present at the crime scene… (Police found evidence because Syrio was present at the crime scene. Changes the meaning).
c. The police found evidence of Syrio was present at the crime scene…(Completely incorrect. It doesn’t make sense to use a clause after “evidence of”)
d. There was ample evidence for the police to file a case against Syrio.
e. The police found no evidence of gun at the crime scene.

Notice how when “evidence” is followed by that, the “that clause” describes what that evidence in fact is. This is absolutely in line with how a typically noun modifier works. You have a noun that is followed by a that clause that explains this noun.

Likewise, when evidence is followed by “for” or “on”, you can see that it is followed by a noun.

So really speaking you do not need to think of “evidence” in terms of an idiom. It works in the same way as any other noun entity would work. But yes, whether evidence should be followed by “that” or by a preposition “for” or “on” depends on what you want to communicate through the sentence.

Hope this helps! :)

Regards,
Krishna
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 03 Dec 2013, 08:58
Clause breakup

1. the first trenches - NOUN
2. that were cut into a 500 acre site at ..syria , have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the middle east –
Error -1 fragment error – two verb in one clause for one subject – S- V error
That correctly refers to the trenches but need to change that clause modifier to verb ed modifier to adjust S-V pair .
3.that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated
city states of southern Mesopotamia, in

Error 2– that is used to modify preceding clause that incorrectly modifies the preceding noun Middle east only where it should modify the whole preceding clause

Error 3 – As per OG rule for greater clarity and concision, 2 DC [Subordinate] structure should be condensed into one

4. what is now southern Iraq.- Non underlined portion.


1. plural subject – trenches and have yielded ok - S-V pair ok
2. verb tense ok .
3. S-V pair error
4. Modifier placement error


Is the analysis ok ? Want to know except A why B,C,D are incorrect ?



A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but[/quote]

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 04 Dec 2013, 03:14
not only... but also
to say about 2 thing similar

...but ...

to say about two things different, a contrast.

try to understand meaning to use words, a game on sc.

noun+having+done, never exist in english grammar and never exist on gmat land. this is a hard and fast rule which we can use to eliminate an answer choice without reading/understanding the meaning.

if we see a split
noun +(noun+that clause)
vs
noun +that clause.

then the focus of meaning is changed. normally the under pattern is correct.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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New post 15 Feb 2014, 21:55
jerrywu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but



In option A

that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

Does 2nd that modifies middle east?
Is it necessary that placement of that always modified the noun preceding it in this case it is middle east but logically it should be societies

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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar [#permalink]

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New post 27 Feb 2014, 04:34
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jrashish wrote:
jerrywu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

A. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but
B. that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also
C. having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but
D. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also
E. cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but



In option A

that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

Does 2nd that modifies middle east?
Is it necessary that placement of that always modified the noun preceding it in this case it is middle east but logically it should be societies


Dear Ashish,

"That" is a relative pronoun. Relative pronouns take the number of the nouns they refer to. So, in some cases, the verb after "that" can give you a clue about what it is referring to. In this case, the verb is "were". So "that" cannot refer to the singular "Middle East".

So, it is not necessary for "that" to be immediately after the noun it refers to.

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Meghna
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 31 Mar 2014, 10:45
"That were cut" and "cut" are qualifiers that provide information about the trenches. The were in "that were cut" isn't the main verb but is part of a modifier. You need not look for voice in something that isn't the main verb of the sentence. Just replace the entire qualifying fragment with, say X, and read the sentence thus:
The X trenches have yielded...

"Having been" is typically used when the author wants to imply a cause-effect relationship. Typically, you can replace it with something like "because he/she was" without changing the meaning of the sentence by much. If you do that here, you get:
The first trenches, because they were cut, ...

But this doesn't make sense because they are not saying that the first trenches were cut, leading to some other effect (yielding evidence). They want to talk about a specific set of trenches (described by X). So the "having been" construction is not appropriate here.
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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at [#permalink]

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New post 08 Apr 2014, 07:14
The construction is "X societies arose simultaneously with but independent of Y."
Read "but" as a conjunction and split the sentence into two sentences:
X societies arose simultaneously with Y.
But X societies arose independently of Y.

Does it make sense now?


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Re: The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at   [#permalink] 08 Apr 2014, 07:14

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