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The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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New post 24 Oct 2017, 10:58
Scorpi0n wrote:
After 4 pages of writind and discussing, we are yet to know why A is wrong? Can it be past - past continuous, evidence for/that, or trenches (that were) cut?

And I really wonder what those more concrete reasons are, Deepak.




Hello Scorpi0n,

I will be glad to help you out with one. :-)


Following are the reason why Choice A is incorrect.

i. Use of evidence for is incorrect in the context of this sentence. The context makes it clear that the trenches provide evidence about something. The best way to express this meaning is by stating evidence that xyz.

ii. This sentence presents general information about a place in the past context. hence, use of simple present tense verb arose is far better than using the past progressive/continuous tense verb were arising.

The above-mentioned are concrete reasons to eliminate Choice A confidently.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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New post 03 Nov 2017, 14:31
2
woodywheel wrote:
i understood the explanation and how we narrowed our choices down to E, but i am confused with subject verb pairing here :-
- the first trenches (subject ) that ( again can be considered subject ) were (verb for that )....., have yielded (verb modifying first trenches) .......societies ( can we consider this as a subject ?) ... that were arising ( verb modiying that) - in this case verb modifying societies is missing, and in case of option E since there is no "that " arose directly modifies societies?

i am trying to figure out
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?

4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )




Hello woodywheel,


I will be glad to help you out with this one. :-)


Following is the structure of the original sentence:

The first trenches
that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East
that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia,
in what is now southern Iraq.


(Subjects = blue, verbs = green)

Now let's come to your questions:

Quote:
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.


That is correct.


Quote:
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....



That is correct.


Quote:
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?



No. With the removal of that, cut no longer remains a verb. It becomes a noun modifier that modifies The first trenches. Only have yielded is the verb for this subject.



Quote:
4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?



Yes, were arising is the verb for that.


Quote:
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )


There is no verb for societies because it does not act as a subject. Please note that a noun preceded by a preposition can NEVER be a subject.


Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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New post 13 Dec 2017, 14:52
tanww1987 wrote:
Hi all, would appreciate some help on the times where "that" is needed and isn't. Simple example below, is it wrong to say the first trenches that were cut?


No, it isn't wrong. D and E use one type of modifier (a modifier that starts with a participle). A and B use a different type of modifier (a modifier that starts with a relative pronoun). Both of these are good types of modifiers. For instance, both of these sentences are correct:

'The horses housed in the barn are owned by Janice.'

'The horses that are housed in the barn are owned by Janice.'
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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New post 07 Jul 2018, 23:47
jerrywu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but


(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also - trenches is plural

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also - trenches is plural

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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New post 08 Jul 2018, 07:12
Quote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but


Approach -

1) Eliminate B and D, yields(singular) with trenches(plural) is incorrect.
2) Eliminate A, evidence is for the arising and not for centrally administered complex societies
3) Eliminate C, changes meaning by omitting with, societies arose simultaneously with and independently of Mesopotamia at the same time
Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, &nbs [#permalink] 08 Jul 2018, 07:12

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