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# The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

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Joined: 02 Nov 2011
Posts: 2688
Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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24 Oct 2017, 10:58
Scorpi0n wrote:
After 4 pages of writind and discussing, we are yet to know why A is wrong? Can it be past - past continuous, evidence for/that, or trenches (that were) cut?

And I really wonder what those more concrete reasons are, Deepak.

Hello Scorpi0n,

Following are the reason why Choice A is incorrect.

i. Use of evidence for is incorrect in the context of this sentence. The context makes it clear that the trenches provide evidence about something. The best way to express this meaning is by stating evidence that xyz.

ii. This sentence presents general information about a place in the past context. hence, use of simple present tense verb arose is far better than using the past progressive/continuous tense verb were arising.

The above-mentioned are concrete reasons to eliminate Choice A confidently.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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26 Oct 2017, 13:27
1
Scorpi0n wrote:
Quote:
Rhetorical construction; Agreement; Grammatical construction

This sentence, explaining interconnections among a number of events, needs to be streamlined as much as possible in order to become understandable. To this end, unnecessary words and structures should be eliminated. Prominent among these are the relative clauses beginning with that.

Additionally, the subject of this sentence is the plural trenches, which requires a plural verb.
A That were cut ... and that were arising ... are unnecessarily wordy and create an unnecessarily complicated and confusing sentence structure.
B In addition to the unnecessarily wordy relative clauses, the singular verb yields does not agree with the plural subject trenches.
C Having been cut ... is unnecessarily wordy; arising simultaneously must be followed by the preposition with in order to make sense.
D The singular verb yields does not agree with the plural subject trenches; also adds no meaning to the sentence.
E Correct. Unnecessary clauses and phrases are avoided, and the subject and verb of the main clause agree in number.

There is no mention of "evidence for" being wrong.

Hello Scorpi0n,

With all my experience with and research of official sentences, I have come to believe that while the officials questions remain unmatched in terms of quality, the same cannot be said for the official explanations.

In fact, many a times, the explanations are not only confusing but out-right incorrect. Hence, at e-gmat.com, we explain each an every official question from self-analysis.

Hence, even if the official explanation makes no mention of evidence for as an error in the original sentence, I do consider it an error because this phrase does not work in the context of the sentence.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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03 Nov 2017, 14:31
2
woodywheel wrote:
i understood the explanation and how we narrowed our choices down to E, but i am confused with subject verb pairing here :-
- the first trenches (subject ) that ( again can be considered subject ) were (verb for that )....., have yielded (verb modifying first trenches) .......societies ( can we consider this as a subject ?) ... that were arising ( verb modiying that) - in this case verb modifying societies is missing, and in case of option E since there is no "that " arose directly modifies societies?

i am trying to figure out
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?

4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )

Hello woodywheel,

Following is the structure of the original sentence:

The first trenches
that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East
that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia,
in what is now southern Iraq.

(Subjects = blue, verbs = green)

Now let's come to your questions:

Quote:
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.

That is correct.

Quote:
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....

That is correct.

Quote:
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?

No. With the removal of that, cut no longer remains a verb. It becomes a noun modifier that modifies The first trenches. Only have yielded is the verb for this subject.

Quote:
4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?

Yes, were arising is the verb for that.

Quote:
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )

There is no verb for societies because it does not act as a subject. Please note that a noun preceded by a preposition can NEVER be a subject.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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13 Dec 2017, 14:52
tanww1987 wrote:
Hi all, would appreciate some help on the times where "that" is needed and isn't. Simple example below, is it wrong to say the first trenches that were cut?

No, it isn't wrong. D and E use one type of modifier (a modifier that starts with a participle). A and B use a different type of modifier (a modifier that starts with a relative pronoun). Both of these are good types of modifiers. For instance, both of these sentences are correct:

'The horses housed in the barn are owned by Janice.'

'The horses that are housed in the barn are owned by Janice.'
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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07 Jul 2018, 23:47
jerrywu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also - trenches is plural

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also - trenches is plural

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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08 Jul 2018, 07:12
Quote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

Approach -

1) Eliminate B and D, yields(singular) with trenches(plural) is incorrect.
2) Eliminate A, evidence is for the arising and not for centrally administered complex societies
3) Eliminate C, changes meaning by omitting with, societies arose simultaneously with and independently of Mesopotamia at the same time
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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18 Aug 2018, 21:40
daagh hazelnut egmat
I read the above discussion but I have still doubt about the correct usage of evidence for
Can you please elaborate when evidence for correct and when incorrect
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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20 Aug 2018, 21:59
Here I'm completely confused with the first usage of "that" in the sentence "The first trenches THAT were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,". Isn't "THAT" a relative pronoun here, which should refer to "TRENCHES", and if it refers to trenches here, isn't this redundant to use.
"The first trenches that(trenches) were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,"

Kindly clarify the doubt...
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The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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20 Aug 2018, 22:03
Here I'm completely confused with the first usage of "that" in the sentence "The first trenches THAT were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,". Isn't "THAT" a relative pronoun here, which should refer to "TRENCHES", and if it refers to trenches here, isn't this redundant to use.
"The first trenches that(trenches) were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,"

Kindly clarify the doubt...
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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22 Aug 2018, 00:26
1
Archit143 wrote:
Hi
i have doubt with option E.
"cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but"
"The first trenches cut into........." is a clause.
I think cut is a verb for the subject "first trenches"......Now in the same sentence, another verb "have yielded" too stands fr the subject "The first trenches"
So my doubt is hwo can there be two verb fr the same subject, when there is no connector.

Consider kudos if my post helps!!!!!

Archit

"cut into a 500 acre ..." is a modifier. It modifies 'trenches' i.e. it tells you more about the trenches.
As pointed out by Vercules above, "cut into a 500 acre" can be replaced by "that were cut into a 500 acre". The meaning doesn't change but you can see clearly that "cut into..." is modifying trenches.
The verb is 'have yielded'.

Responding to a pm:
Quote:
Here I'm completely confused with the first usage of "that" in the sentence "The first trenches THAT were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,". Isn't "THAT" a relative pronoun here, which should refer to "TRENCHES", and if it refers to trenches here, isn't this redundant to use.
"The first trenches that(trenches) were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar,"

Yes, "that" is a relative pronoun and "that were cut ...Syria" is a defining relative clause.
You can omit the relative pronoun when it acts as the object of the relative clause. You cannot omit it when it acts as the subject of the relative clause.
Here it acts as the subject "trenches were cut ..." hence you cannot omit "that".

Alternatively, option (E) uses a participle and that is correct too.
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The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,  [#permalink]

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25 Sep 2018, 04:48
Oh my god!!. I see lot of expert replies with long explanation.

Simple rule for this question is author is talking about the past, so everything in the sentence should be in simple past and evidence should be followed by that. I can see both in option E

Option (E): cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally
administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

Kudos for the post
The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, &nbs [#permalink] 25 Sep 2018, 04:48

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