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# The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,

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Joined: 02 Nov 2011
Posts: 2463
Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, [#permalink]

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26 Oct 2017, 13:27
1
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Expert's post
Scorpi0n wrote:
Quote:
Rhetorical construction; Agreement; Grammatical construction

This sentence, explaining interconnections among a number of events, needs to be streamlined as much as possible in order to become understandable. To this end, unnecessary words and structures should be eliminated. Prominent among these are the relative clauses beginning with that.

Additionally, the subject of this sentence is the plural trenches, which requires a plural verb.
A That were cut ... and that were arising ... are unnecessarily wordy and create an unnecessarily complicated and confusing sentence structure.
B In addition to the unnecessarily wordy relative clauses, the singular verb yields does not agree with the plural subject trenches.
C Having been cut ... is unnecessarily wordy; arising simultaneously must be followed by the preposition with in order to make sense.
D The singular verb yields does not agree with the plural subject trenches; also adds no meaning to the sentence.
E Correct. Unnecessary clauses and phrases are avoided, and the subject and verb of the main clause agree in number.

There is no mention of "evidence for" being wrong.

Hello Scorpi0n,

With all my experience with and research of official sentences, I have come to believe that while the officials questions remain unmatched in terms of quality, the same cannot be said for the official explanations.

In fact, many a times, the explanations are not only confusing but out-right incorrect. Hence, at e-gmat.com, we explain each an every official question from self-analysis.

Hence, even if the official explanation makes no mention of evidence for as an error in the original sentence, I do consider it an error because this phrase does not work in the context of the sentence.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, [#permalink]

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28 Oct 2017, 11:57
carcass wrote:
Hi guy

In all fairness, I think is wrong to attack such complex question in the way you did, with the use of that as pivot point.

Moreover, I'm honest to say that me too had problems simply because
- this kind of question is difficult only for the reason that when you read it from the beginning, when you are in the end of the phrase you already forgot where you stand: lost

- is important to understand the exact time line, without this process you always will pick such question wrong or at least you pick right but after five minute (during the exam the pressure blow your mind for sure) that is the same to pick it wrong.

Now back to the question: the acheologists do something NOW (cut a site into pieces) and discover something else (in that place complex societies took place) and the societies AROSE, in the past.

If you use arise or arising the societies seem still there. as an ongoing situation

cut (now) into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously (one time) with but and so on

If you do not understand clearly thi first split (the land were cut not in the past but NOW) by someone. They cut the land into acres $$NOW$$

Focus on the whole picture. Grammar is important but try to understand a macro vision of the sentence

Thanks for this explanation.. better than any i scrolled down to. Carcass, its now clearer
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, [#permalink]

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30 Oct 2017, 22:18
jerrywu wrote:
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but

For this question options A and E were very close, but there is a subtle meaning difference, which I want to highlight,

The subtle but a bit illogical thing about the sentence is that it says that somethings have provided evidence for the existence of some societies but the sentence provides additional information about the societies as if we already had this information about the societies. By changing the meaning of the original sentence, option E makes the meaning more logical.

Another problem with the original sentence is the use of progressive tense “were arising”. We should use progressive tense only to talk about continuous events happening in a moment of time. We shouldn’t use progressive tense to present general facts or information.
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, [#permalink]

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03 Nov 2017, 01:51
i understood the explanation and how we narrowed our choices down to E, but i am confused with subject verb pairing here :-
- the first trenches (subject ) that ( again can be considered subject ) were (verb for that )....., have yielded (verb modifying first trenches) .......societies ( can we consider this as a subject ?) ... that were arising ( verb modiying that) - in this case verb modifying societies is missing, and in case of option E since there is no "that " arose directly modifies societies?

i am trying to figure out
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?

4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )
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Posts: 2463
Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, [#permalink]

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03 Nov 2017, 14:31
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Expert's post
woodywheel wrote:
i understood the explanation and how we narrowed our choices down to E, but i am confused with subject verb pairing here :-
- the first trenches (subject ) that ( again can be considered subject ) were (verb for that )....., have yielded (verb modifying first trenches) .......societies ( can we consider this as a subject ?) ... that were arising ( verb modiying that) - in this case verb modifying societies is missing, and in case of option E since there is no "that " arose directly modifies societies?

i am trying to figure out
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?

4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )

Hello woodywheel,

Following is the structure of the original sentence:

The first trenches
that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,
have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East
that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia,
in what is now southern Iraq.

(Subjects = blue, verbs = green)

Now let's come to your questions:

Quote:
1. am I right in saying - if first trenches as a noun is subject and have yielded as a verb for this.

That is correct.

Quote:
2. if that is removed after first trenches then full clause " first trenches cut into ...... " becomes a subject whose verb is have yielded ?....

That is correct.

Quote:
3. when that is removed after first trenches then it will have two verbs CUT and HAVE yielded?

No. With the removal of that, cut no longer remains a verb. It becomes a noun modifier that modifies The first trenches. Only have yielded is the verb for this subject.

Quote:
4. also in option A for "complex societies"..... that
is the verb " were arising " refers to that?

Yes, were arising is the verb for that.

Quote:
if yes than what will be the verb for societies, ( as in the first case trenches that has a verb were cut and then trenches referred to have yielded as a verb )

There is no verb for societies because it does not act as a subject. Please note that a noun preceded by a preposition can NEVER be a subject.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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When to use the word "that" [#permalink]

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12 Dec 2017, 07:41
Hi all, would appreciate some help on the times where "that" is needed and isn't. Simple example below, is it wrong to say the first trenches that were cut?

The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but
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The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, [#permalink]

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13 Dec 2017, 14:52
tanww1987 wrote:
Hi all, would appreciate some help on the times where "that" is needed and isn't. Simple example below, is it wrong to say the first trenches that were cut?

No, it isn't wrong. D and E use one type of modifier (a modifier that starts with a participle). A and B use a different type of modifier (a modifier that starts with a relative pronoun). Both of these are good types of modifiers. For instance, both of these sentences are correct:

'The horses housed in the barn are owned by Janice.'

'The horses that are housed in the barn are owned by Janice.'
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, [#permalink]

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27 Jan 2018, 22:49
The first trenches that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but independently of the more celebrated city-states of southern Mesopotamia, in what is now southern Iraq.

(A) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence for centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East that were arising simultaneously with but - Usage of that were cut is redundant, that is a essential modifier used only when there is some restriction, also were arising is incorrect here

(B) that were cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously with but also - SV disagreement as trenches is plural so yields is incorrect

(C) having been cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East were arising simultaneously but - Usage of VERB+ING form is incorrect here, also were arising is incorrect here

(D) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, yields strong evidence of centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arising simultaneously but also - SV disagreement as trenches is plural so yields is incorrect

(E) cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria, have yielded strong evidence that centrally administered complex societies in northern regions of the Middle East arose simultaneously with but - CORRECT, maintains SV agreement also rectifies present continuous tense usage were arising by using arose
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Re: The first trenches cut into a 500-acre site at Tell Hamoukar, Syria,   [#permalink] 27 Jan 2018, 22:49

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