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The results of the company's cost-cutting measures are evident in its

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New post 28 Sep 2014, 07:26
Hi E-gmat,

Content taken from the latest post of e-gmat on this thread.

The results are evident because of a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling over the last two years.

The above meaning makes logical sense. However, is this sense compatible with the intended meaning of the author? The answer is NO! Also, besides the fact that choices D and E form rather awkward sentences, in the “with” modifying phrases, we are just told about a five percent increase, but we are not told exactly what entity has increased during the first three months of this year. The same goes for the “falling” bit. We do not know exactly what fell over the last two years.


My questions:

How the above makes logical sense.

The results are evident because of a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling over the last two years.

What has increased by 5% and what had fallen previously , we don't know from the above sentence then how can it be logical?

Plz suggest !
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Q#90 from OG-13 | Application of with in GMAT  [#permalink]

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New post 05 Feb 2016, 09:19
2
The results of the company's cost-cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.

a. which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell
b. which had increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it had fallen
c. which have increased five percent during the first three months of this year after falling
d. with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling
e. with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after having fallen


This is what I know till date. I might be having Knowledge Gap -

[Clause] + [comma]+ [with] → WITH modifies the action (verb). It answers the questions how that action was performed.
[Noun] + [Comma] + [With] → WITH Modifies the noun.

I scored a century, with a special bat
Clause + comma + with modifies the verb and answers the question how the action was performed.

Starfish, with an innate ability to reproduce, reproduces very fast.
Noun + Comma + With -> modifies the noun.

Is my Knowledge correct or their is something that I am missing?

Some one has challenged me that my this information is incorrect -
[Noun] + [Comma] + [With] → WITH Modifies the noun.

This was his opinion -

used to follow the above rules, but I'm afraid only the first one is correct.

I had the same doubt ,which was finally resolved by an expert from Manhattan (Dmitry Farber).

As per Dmitry,

"Careful, folks. Adverbial modifiers don't modify nouns at all. That's why they're called adverbial modifiers. Adverbs generally modify verbs, but can also modify adjectives or other adverbs. They can even modify an entire preceding clause. However, they cannot modify nouns."

Now you can see why option D is incorrect .Because the adverbial phrase doesn't make any sense with the verb (or the previous clause), something that you deduced yourself - "Second,"with..." phrase modifies verb "are evident"; this construction doesn't make any sense. "

We did some more research sir and find something else -

Good description of the use of "adverbial modifiers" Arun, but in this particular sentence we will have to be careful. Let's discuss some grammar here :)

Fact 1-
"with..." phrase is a prepositional phrase in option D here.
Fact 2-
Prepositional phrase can act both as an adverbial phrase and as an adjective phrase.

Application 1-
If "with..." is intended to modify noun( profits), then the phrase acts as an adjectival phrase.

Application 2-
If "with..." is intended to modify verb( are evident), then the phrase acts as an adverbial phrase.

Now the discussion is not about the correct usage of "adverbial phrase", but to identify how the prepositional phrase("with...") has been used here - Is it Application1, or Application2?

__________________________________


I am so much confused with the application of "with" Help will be appreciated.
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Re: The results of the company’s cost-cutting measures are evident in its  [#permalink]

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New post 24 Oct 2016, 21:12
Nevernevergiveup wrote:
The results of the company’s cost-cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.
A. which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell
B. which had increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it had fallen
C. which have increased five percent during the first three months of this year after falling
D. with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling
E. with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after having fallen


I agree the profits is the subject which increases/decreases here and is a plural word. Therefore pronoun it cannot refer to to profits as per subject-verb rule. thereby options A and B are incorrect.

with phrase is appropriate here removing options D and E leaving out C as the remaining correct choice.

but in option C, I could not understand how we can define a past event(that too which happened before profits increased in verb+ing form i.e., present continuous tense form)
Is there anything specific regarding time period mentioned as over last two years.

Now did you understand my query? :oops:Sorry for troubling you earlier.
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New post 25 Oct 2016, 09:51
Nevernevergiveup wrote:
Nevernevergiveup wrote:
The results of the company’s cost-cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.
A. which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell
B. which had increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it had fallen
C. which have increased five percent during the first three months of this year after falling
D. with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling
E. with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after having fallen


I agree the profits is the subject which increases/decreases here and is a plural word. Therefore pronoun it cannot refer to to profits as per subject-verb rule. thereby options A and B are incorrect.

with phrase is appropriate here removing options D and E leaving out C as the remaining correct choice.

but in option C, I could not understand how we can define a past event(that too which happened before profits increased in verb+ing form i.e., present continuous tense form)
Is there anything specific regarding time period mentioned as over last two years.

Now did you understand my query? :oops:Sorry for troubling you earlier.

Dear Nevernevergiveup,

Thank you! Now I understand your question. :-)

This is a subtle point about the present particle, the -ing participle. If there is a main verb and then a phrase with a present participle modifies this main clause, the action in the present participle is understood to occur at the same time as the main verb.
1) Obama serves as US President, enacting policies to benefit citizens.
All in the present.
2) Grant served as US President, enacting policies to benefit citizens.
Grant's service was in the past (1869-1877), and the "enacting" matches this, also in the past.
3) Mike McGarry will serve as US President, enacting policies to benefit citizens.
In this extremely unlikely scenario, my hypothetical service is in the future, and the "enacting" matches this, also in the future.

Thus, the "present participle" is not always present--it is "present" to the time of the main verb, and thus can represent a past or future action.

Now, if we want to indicate that the secondary action took place at a time other than the time of the main verb, we would have to use a perfect participle (e.g. "having enacted") or use a subordinate clause rather than a participle.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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New post 19 Jan 2017, 07:53
i can go to choice C as oa for this problem
but we have a problem in official answer.
in C, "falling" take the tense of main clause, which is "have increased. this mean "after they have fallen... over last two years". this is not logic.
in this case, subject should be present and full clause is " after the profits fell over last two years"

am I correct? is official answer wrong? sorry for these words. maybe i am wrong

pls, discuss this point
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New post 14 Jul 2017, 01:12
The results of the company's cost-cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.

(A) which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell

(B) which had increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it had fallen

(C) which have increased five percent during the first three months of this year after falling

(D) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after falling

(E) with a five percent increase during the first three months of this year after having fallen


Hello. the correct answer is C. BUT is it correct idiom "increased %" ? shouldn't it be "increased BY %"
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New post 16 Aug 2017, 04:13
Dear Mike,

after reading your reply in the thread, I would like to know, whether in the choice C "which have increased five percent during the first three months of this year after had been falling" would be grammatically more correct, as the increase is occurring in a period after the period in which the profits were falling.

Thanks in advance
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New post 16 Aug 2017, 14:17
oderebek wrote:
Dear Mike,

after reading your reply in the thread, I would like to know, whether in the choice C "which have increased five percent during the first three months of this year after had been falling" would be grammatically more correct, as the increase is occurring in a period after the period in which the profits were falling.

Thanks in advance

Dear oderebek,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

My friend, your question indicates some confusions on a few issues. The distinction of tenses, say past vs. present perfect vs. past perfect, is a distinction among full verbs. Full verbs and only full verb have the complete range of tenses.

In order for the "-ing" form of a verb to function as a full verb, it would have to be accompanied by some auxiliary verb
is falling = present progressive
was falling = past progressive
has been falling = present perfect progressive
had been falling = past perfect progressive
Those are all full verbs: any of them could be the main verb of an independent clause.

When "falling" appears by itself, without an auxiliary verb, it is NOT a full verb. It is participle or a gerund. There are present and past participles: present participles are alway active (e.g. buying, selling, hearing, seeing, etc.) and past participles are passive (e.g. bought, sold, heard, seen, etc.) The issue with tenses and participles is subtle, because the "present" participle actually can take on the tense of the main verb.
He entered town, driving well above the speed limit. (The "driving" is a past action.)
He is entering town right now, driving well above the speed limit. (The "driving" is a present action.)
I predict that he will enter town, driving well above the speed limit. (The "driving" is a future action.)

For GMAT purposes, gerunds don't have tense at all.

In this sentence, in the phrase "after falling," the word "after" is a preposition, and the object of a preposition has to be a noun or something acting in a noun-role. The form of a verb that acts in a noun-roll is a gerund, so "falling" here is a gerund, an grammatical form that inherently has no tense at all.

In your question, you asked if we start with a gerund, something that has absolutely no tense, can we add auxiliary verbs to it to give it a tense. With all due respect, my friend, do you see how what you were asking is grounded in multiple misunderstandings? Among other things, you were misunderstanding one part of speech, a gerund, for an entirely different part of speech, a full verb.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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New post 13 Apr 2018, 04:52
Hi,
Could anyone please elaborate on choices B and D. Why "with a five percent increase" is wrong in options D, E. However I eliminated E for tense "having fallen". I need a more detailed explanation of options B and D. Please help.
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New post 13 Apr 2018, 05:33
yash321 wrote:
Hi,
Could anyone please elaborate on choices B and D. Why "with a five percent increase" is wrong in options D, E. However I eliminated E for tense "having fallen". I need a more detailed explanation of options B and D. Please help.



Hello yash321,

I will be glad to help you with you this one. :-)

Errors in Choice B:

1. Verb Tense Error: The verb tense had increased is written incorrectly in past perfect tense. The two events in the past are – falling of profits and increase in profits. The increase in profits is the later event. Thus, expressing it in past perfect tense is incorrect. Expressing the earlier event in past tense is correct – had fallen.

2. Pronoun-Antecedent Number Error: The singular pronoun it has been used to refer to plural noun profits.


Errors in Choice D:

1. Modifier Error: The modifier with a five percent increase non-sensically modifies the preceding clause. Per the intended meaning, it should modify the preceding noun – profits.


Hope it helps. :-)
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Re: The results of the company's cost-cutting measures are evident in its  [#permalink]

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New post 24 Jul 2019, 00:01
The results of the company's cost-cutting measures are evident in its profits, which increased five percent during the first three months of this year after it fell over the last two years.

A is incorrect because there is a blatant SV Agreement error. Second, if we say "it fell" we imply that the event was a one-off and not some sort of trend that actually led to the cost-cutting measures
For this reason A is incorrect.

B Past perfect here confuses the sequencing of events. Had increased after it had fallen? It makes it unclear what came first although logically something increased after something fell. Incorrect

C is correct as "which" correctly modifies "profits". The relative clause here correctly modifies the noun preceding it.

"with a 5% increase" can be tested by itself and excluding the participle phrase after it ("increase during..")
it actually doesn't make sense to have it here. With makes sense when saying "With the might of sword, King David killed the heathens"

Same goes for E, Tense issues also present.
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New post 28 Feb 2020, 20:43
Hi, I am wondering why we don't need a "by" before five percent in OA. Thank you!
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Re: The results of the company's cost-cutting measures are evident in its   [#permalink] 28 Feb 2020, 20:43

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