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Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer,

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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 07 Jan 2016, 12:58
could someone explain why "both" isn't needed?
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 07 Jan 2016, 13:04
nycgirl212 wrote:
could someone explain why "both" isn't needed?


You need to make grammatical and logical sense with both A and B elements in 'both A and B'. If you have 'both' as in A, you would imply that your elements are something rooted in xyz and Duke (does not make sense. You are comparing something innate/rooted to a person).

Use of 'both' would have been fine had an option mentioned something similar to : "rooted in both 'person 1' and 'person 2'". In this elements A and B were both grammatically and logically comparable and hence parallel. None of the options has this particular variation and as such you need to pick an option that is the best out of the 5 given.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 08 Jan 2016, 00:16
The determiner ‘both’ requires two factors.
Choice A; Both rooted --- There is only one factor namely a body of work; there is no other factor for example ‘a collection of beats’. So the use of both rooted is wrong.
Choice B and E: ‘rooted both’ -- there is only factor namely ‘the stride-piano tradition’ – This single factor is common to Willie and Dyke and there is no second factor for the word ‘both’ to refer to. So, ‘both’ in B and E is also wrong.
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 08 Jan 2016, 18:56
nycgirl212 wrote:
could someone explain why "both" isn't needed?


Basically both is used incorrectly in all the options so it can't be used.
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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Pl. note the word ‘both’ is a wrong diction in the context. There is only one style namely the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington in which Monk’s jazz was rooted and not two styles as the text wants to make out by deviously citing two musicians. Therefore, all choices that use the word ‘both’ namely A, B and E are out of the race. Between C and D, C is a fragment. D is the correct answer.
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 24 Dec 2016, 18:09
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this question tests you on parallelism -

Note that this correlative conjunction - Both X and Y - requires X and Y to be perfectly parallel.

Let us look at the answer options -

A - "both rooted in ...and Duke Ellington" - these two things are not in parallel.

B - "both in the stride piano ... and Duke Ellington" - these two things are not in parallel.

C - "Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, who produced a body of work rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory"

Note that "yet" is used as co-ordinating conjunction here. Hence, two things that it contrasts must be parallel. Also, note that the portion in blue is a modifier.

"in many ways he stood apart ..." - a clause - is contrasted with "Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk" - a phrase.
Hence, incorrect.

D - Correct answer. Note that we are not using the correlative conjunction both X and Y.

"... rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington" - these two things are in parallel.

E - "both in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington"
these two things are not in parallel.
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 26 Dec 2016, 16:43
sakshamgulati123 wrote:
Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, produced a body of work both rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory-
(A) Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, produced a body of work both rooted
(B) Thelonious Monk, the jazz pianist and composer, produced a body of work that was rooted both
(C) Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, who produced a body of work rooted
(D) Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted
(E) Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work rooted both

Although the OG 16 mentions D as the correct answer, i would like to know the use of comma ,which makes b as the right choice in my assumptions.
Much guidance needed here.


The commas are fine in both (B) and (D). I assume you're talking about the modifier 'the jazz pianist and composer'/'jazz pianist and composer', which has commas in (B) but not in (D), right?

But you're in luck: the GMAT doesn't test commas in this way. The only situation in which I've seen the GMAT test commas, is when you're dealing with essential vs. inessential modifiers. Commas can sometimes give you a clue that something is wrong, but they aren't really tested directly, so you should focus on other issues first.
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 22 Jul 2017, 21:05
Hi Experts GMATNinja mikemcgarry

GMAT Qs are a bit funny sometimes, except that they cost a lot!!
Do we not actually need a BOTH after verb-ed modifier - rooted?
None of sentences have below format:
Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, produced a body of work
rooted both in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and in Duke
Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory.
But this too sound incorrect too me.

OA simply eliminates usage of
BOTH if BOTH in not used in correct idiom as : BOTH x and y (x and y: noun phrases)
Any views on the same?
WR, Arpit
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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Just with the knowledge of the STRICT PARALLEL RULE of "both x and y" we know that A, B, and E are incorrect. X and Y have to be in the same form.

My reasoning of why C is incorrect.
(C) Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, who produced a body of work rooted

Lets look at it as a complete sentence: Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, who produced a body of work rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yetin many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory. -- "who produced a body of work rooted tin the stride..." is correctly modifying Thelonius. HOWEVER, this is a descriptive phrase and DPs are not necessary they are "fluff" and if eliminated the WHOLE sentence must make sense.

So when we eliminate it we get this sentence: Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertor. --See why it doesn't make sense? this is a comparison In order to be correct the first phrase must say something that is parallel to "yet (fluff) he stood..."


(D) Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted

Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory. <-- correct comparison.
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 25 Jul 2017, 19:33
adkikani wrote:
Hi Experts GMATNinja mikemcgarry

GMAT Qs are a bit funny sometimes, except that they cost a lot!!
Do we not actually need a BOTH after verb-ed modifier - rooted?
None of sentences have below format:
Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, produced a body of work
rooted both in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and in Duke
Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory.
But this too sound incorrect too me.

OA simply eliminates usage of
BOTH if BOTH in not used in correct idiom as : BOTH x and y (x and y: noun phrases)
Any views on the same?
WR, Arpit



Hello adkikani /Arpit.

I will be glad to help you with your doubt. :-)

Just because both is used in the original sentence, it is not necessary that this word must be present in the correct answer too.

You must first understand why a word has been used in the sentence. Does its usage convey logical meaning? If not, then we should figure out how it can be used correctly in the sentence. However, if an answer choice is logically and grammatically correct even without the usage of that particular word, then also the choice will qualify as the correct answer choice.

Same is the case with Choice D of this official sentence.

However, we can use both in the following way in this official sentence:

Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted in the stride-piano tradition of both Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory.

In the above-mentioned sentence, usage of both X and Y is grammatical as well as logical.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 26 Jul 2017, 04:19
valepm wrote:
Just with the knowledge of the STRICT PARALLEL RULE of "both x and y" we know that A, B, and E are incorrect. X and Y have to be in the same form.

My reasoning of why C is incorrect.
(C) Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, who produced a body of work rooted

Lets look at it as a complete sentence: Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, who produced a body of work rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yetin many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory. -- "who produced a body of work rooted tin the stride..." is correctly modifying Thelonius. HOWEVER, this is a descriptive phrase and DPs are not necessary they are "fluff" and if eliminated the WHOLE sentence must make sense.

So when we eliminate it we get this sentence: Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertor. --See why it doesn't make sense? this is a comparison In order to be correct the first phrase must say something that is parallel to "yet (fluff) he stood..."


(D) Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted

Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory. <-- correct comparison.


Hello valepm,


You have presented your analysis with the right thought-process. So kudos for that. :-)

Just adding my two cents. The sentence presents contrast evident by the usage of the word yet.

It is true that Choice C fails to present the intended contrast because there is no verb associated with the subject Thelonious Monk. So yes, Choice C has a missing verb for the subject.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, produced a body of work both rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory.

A. Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, produced a body of work both rooted
B. Thelonious Monk, the jazz pianist and composer, produced a body of work that was rooted both
C. Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk, who produced a body of work rooted
D. Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted
E. Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work rooted both


CHOICE A: There is nothing technically incorrect with the first 9 words of this sentence, but in general, you should prioritize ACTION VERBS such as "produced" and "stood apart" to VERBS OF BEING / LINKING VERBS such as "was," because verbs of being can often be skipped altogether. For example, "I liked the house that was blue" is unnecessary; instead one should say "I liked the blue house." In addition, "jazz pianist and composer" is Monk's title, and as such should be placed immediately next to his name if possible. For example, "Architect Frank Gehry..." is a better sentence opener than "Frank Gehry, the architect, ..." Finally, we should note that the word "both" does not work here, despite the fact that two musicians are mentioned at the end of the sentence. See the explanation of Choice E for more information on this.

CHOICE B: This is better than Choice A because the "who was" is removed, but it has the same problem as does Choice A with regard to the unnecessary separation between the person ("Monk") and his title ("jazz pianist and composer"), as well as the "both" issue explained in the analysis of Choice E.

CHOICE C: This cannot be correct, because the use of the modifier "who," which takes its own verb ("produced") and thus removes the main verb from the first part of the sentence. For example, "My friend, who owns a coffeeshop, yet he still finds time to practice the drums." is incorrect because of the ", who ____ ." In addition, there is no need to put a comma between the main subject of the sentence ("Monk") and its verb ("produced").

CHOICE D: Correct! It properly addresses both the flaws of the Choice A (unnecessary comma between the person and his title, unnecessary verb of being) and is the best choice here, though the "that was" at the end is unnecessary.

CHOICE E: This is a decoy answer that is very close to working (it does improve on Choice D in the omission of "that was"), but if you use the expression "(adjective) both in A and (in) B," then the first part of the expression needs to carry over to the second. It doesn't make sense to write "a body of work rooted both in the stride piano tradition of Willie Smith and Duke Ellington, yet..."--you can't be "rooted in Duke Ellington," because unlike the first example ("rooted in the stride piano tradition"), Duke Ellington is a person and not a musical style--this answer choice is incorrect. Thus, you could consider this to be a parallel structure error, or a faulty comparison.

For example (incorrect): "I am immersed in both the art of teaching math and English, yet I still have much to learn." Just because I wrote "math and English" doesn't mean that the "both" is correct. I am immersed in only one thing in this sentence--the art of teaching, whether or not that art consists of multiple elements (math and English). Hence I should remove the word "both" entirely, or put it before the word "math": "I am immersed in the art of teaching (both) math and English, yet I still have much to learn."

CORRECT VERSION: Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory.

PERFECT VERSION: Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory.
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 31 Jan 2018, 19:39
sayantanc2k

I have questions regarding (D) & (E).
It seems to me that "Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk" are two different people. 1.) Jazz pianist 2.) composer Thelonious Monk.

Can verbal experts help me clarify my confusion? To my understanding, it is X and Y. Each side of the word "and" is parallel to one another and represents different value.
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The tricky thing about open parallelism markers such as “and” is that while we know that they connect the elements on either side, we don’t know how far those elements extend! In this case, “and” connects “Jazz pianist” and “composer” only. How can we tell? First, “Jazz pianist” can’t be someone’s name. At the very least, we’d need to say “*The* jazz pianist and *the* composer to show that we were talking about two different people, and even then, the reader would ask “Which jazz pianist?” Second, the rest of the sentence only refers to one singular subject: “he stood apart.”

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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer, [#permalink]

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New post 31 Jan 2018, 20:20
lary301254M7

I am not an expert but let me add my two cents.

Quote:
I have questions regarding (D) & (E).
It seems to me that "Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk" are two different people. 1.) Jazz pianist 2.) composer Thelonious Monk.


Whenever you see a parallel marker such as AND, BUT try to think of that word as main stem
and the elements in the list as tree. See more about it here
The branches and stem together must make a complete logical entity, right?

So now coming to your query:

Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk produced a body of work that was rooted in the stride-piano tradition of Willie (The Lion) Smith and Duke Ellington, yet in many ways he stood apart from the mainstream jazz repertory.

So it says:
Thelonious Monk
was a Jazz pianist
and composer
produced...

You could also take hint from (A) since relative pronoun who refers back to Thelonious Monk.

Hope this helps!
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Re: Thelonious Monk, who was a jazz pianist and composer,   [#permalink] 31 Jan 2018, 20:20

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