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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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chetan2u wrote:
happy1992 wrote:
Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) and agonizing moral dilemmas, the plots of tragedies also involve dramatic irony, where the audience recognizes the facts before they are recognized by the play's characters themselves

A. they are recognized by the play's characters themselves
B. the play's characters recognize the facts
C. these facts are recognized by the play's characters
D. being recognized by the play's characters
E. the play's characters themselves do


Hi,
PL provide the Q with OA...

The MAIN error here is parallelism issue in terms of voice in portion on either side of BEFORE..
The non-underlined portion - the audience recognizes the facts- has 'the facts' as OBJECT and there is no reason to convert the portion as passive after BEFORE..
It is much better to use SAME voice ..
ONLY B and E are left..

In B, the reflexive pronoun THEMSELVES is missing, while E carries it correctly..
Also DO in E is a much better thing than to repeat the words- the facts- again.. Not something which can alone separate two chopices..

E



Why is themselves necessary? wouldn't "before they are recognized by the play's characters." work?
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) and agonizing moral dilemmas, the plots of tragedies also involve dramatic irony, where the audience recognizes the facts before they are recognized by the play's characters themselves.

A. they are recognized by the play's characters themselves
--> "they" and "themselves" must have the same antecedant if they stand in the same clause. Active voice is preferred if available.

B. the play's characters recognize the facts
--> redundant.

C. these facts are recognized by the play's characters
--> redundant. Active voice is preferred if available.

D. being recognized by the play's characters
--> it is implicitly understood that the subject of being recognized is "the audience" --> wrong.

E. the play's characters themselves do
--> correct and concise.
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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happy1992 wrote:
Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) and agonizing moral dilemmas, the plots of tragedies also involve dramatic irony, where the audience recognizes the facts before they are recognized by the play's characters themselves

A. they are recognized by the play's characters themselves
B. the play's characters recognize the facts
C. these facts are recognized by the play's characters
D. being recognized by the play's characters
E. the play's characters themselves do


this is hard question. the points tested here are passive voice and pronoun problem.

passive voice is used when the agent which make the action is not important. only the action and object of action is important. in this context, the agent of action, "play characters" are important. so, passive voice should not be used. choice C is inferior to Choice E. the passtive voice is only incorrect when the active voice is present and is considered better when the agent is important. when agent is important, it should be subject of the sentence. when only action and object of action is important, passive is used. that is all about passive and active difference.

regarding pronoun problem.
I like the apple and my friends also like the apple.
if we do not use pronoun. the sentence become unclear. it is possible that there are two apples. I Like apple A and you like apple B. This is serious meaning problem if you do not use pronoun. so, the use of pronoun make the meaning clear: there is only one apple. for all those reasons, choice B is wrong.
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
normally, when passive voice is used, agent which makes action is not shown because the speakers is not willing to say about this agent. if passive voice contain agent at the end of sentence, this agent becomes redundant because the speaker at this moment do not want to focus on agent. if agent is the focus of the sentence, this agent should be the grammatical subject of the sentence and the sentence should be an active voice.
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
daagh
Can you please brief the difference between B and E ?
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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happy1992 wrote:
Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) and agonizing moral dilemmas, the plots of tragedies also involve dramatic irony, where the audience recognizes the facts before they are recognized by the play's characters themselves.

(A) they are recognized by the play's characters themselves

(B) the play's characters recognize the facts

(C) these facts are recognized by the play's characters

(D) being recognized by the play's characters

(E) the play's characters themselves do


choice D, being refers to audience . this is illogic clearly
in choice A, "they" is unclear..
look at choice B and C.
we use passive if we want to emphasis not the agent making the action but the action/fact performed by the agent. inhere, we want to emphasis agent not what agent do, so, active is better than passive, C is gone/

we dont repeat a noun but we have to use pronoun. B is gone

two problems with choice B and C is subtle and will not tested on gmat frequently. this make this question hard
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
daagh AjiteshArun
Can you please brief the difference between option B and E ?
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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teasarbae
In B, where the audience recognizes the facts before the play's characters recognize the facts -- the repetition of 'recognize the facts' is redundant and awkward
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
daagh wrote:
teasarbae
In B, where the audience recognizes the facts before the play's characters recognize the facts -- the repetition of 'recognize the facts' is redundant and awkward


I find it hard to understand this because Kaplan has similar questions that seem to use these repetitions.
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
generis

What's wrong with option B?? I don't think B is wrong in any sort.

I know that E is also correct but we have to discard B on the basis of any reason. I am not able to find that reason.

Please help !!
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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happy1992 wrote:
Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) and agonizing moral dilemmas, the plots of tragedies also involve dramatic irony, where the audience recognizes the facts before they are recognized by the play's characters themselves.

(A) they are recognized by the play's characters themselves

(B) the play's characters recognize the facts

(C) these facts are recognized by the play's characters

(D) being recognized by the play's characters

(E) the play's characters themselves do


GMATNinja daagh egmat EducationAisle I would really appreciate if someone could help me clear my doubt regarding ellipsis. Thanks!

I understand why E is superior to all other choices but I ruled it out due to one issue: ellipsis.

The audience recognizes the facts before the play's characters themselves do (recognize)

"recognize" is missing since "recognizes" != "recognize". I know that there's a rule that all words in ellipsis should be present somewhere else in the sentence. How can we get away without the exact verb present somewhere else?

In contrast, for example (Ellipsis with sentences without DO), in this Q: https://gmatclub.com/forum/inflation-ha ... ml?kudos=1, we do need the exact verb tense.
Wrong: They still expect to live better than their parents have (Missing: "lived". Need "did (live)" instead of "have")

Another example (Ellipsis with sentences with DO):
Wrong: She went to school before all children do (Missing: "go". Need "did (go)" instead of "do" but no "go"????)
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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dabaobao wrote:
happy1992 wrote:
Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) and agonizing moral dilemmas, the plots of tragedies also involve dramatic irony, where the audience recognizes the facts before they are recognized by the play's characters themselves.

(A) they are recognized by the play's characters themselves

(B) the play's characters recognize the facts

(C) these facts are recognized by the play's characters

(D) being recognized by the play's characters

(E) the play's characters themselves do


GMATNinja daagh egmat EducationAisle I would really appreciate if someone could help me clear my doubt regarding ellipsis. Thanks!

I understand why E is superior to all other choices but I ruled it out due to one issue: ellipsis.

The audience recognizes the facts before the play's characters themselves do (recognize)

"recognize" is missing since "recognizes" != "recognize". I know that there's a rule that all words in ellipsis should be present somewhere else in the sentence. How can we get away without the exact verb present somewhere else?

In contrast, for example (Ellipsis with sentences without DO), in this Q: https://gmatclub.com/forum/inflation-ha ... ml?kudos=1, we do need the exact verb tense.
Wrong: They still expect to live better than their parents have (Missing: "lived". Need "did (live)" instead of "have")

Another example (Ellipsis with sentences with DO):
Wrong: She went to school before all children do (Missing: "go". Need "did (go)" instead of "do" but no "go"????)


dabaobao , I will let the experts you have tagged reply about this question.
But you are a little mixed up about my post that you cite.
It's easy to get mixed up about ellipsis and substitution.

When verbs shift tenses in a sentence, we have two choices.
We can write out both verbs in their entirety, this way:
Marisol works harder in college than Reva worked when Reva was in college.

Or we can use the appropriate form of to do because that verb can stand in for almost any verb. (Exceptions are below.)
We write the "to do" substitute verb in the tense that we need.
Marisol works harder in college than Reva did.
DID = WORKED

Don't test correctness by seeing whether you can write did (works).
Just ask whether did equals worked. Are both verbs past tense so that they refer properly to Reva, who is finished with college?
Yes, did and worked are both past tense.

The one verb that you can use when verb tenses shift is some form of TO DO (do, does, or did, usually).

When we use do, does, and did, we do not need exactly the same verb tense.
This situation is precisely the one in which we use do, does, or did.
The only verb that will work to express a verb shift is some form of TO DO.

Quote:
I know that there's a rule that all words in ellipsis should be present somewhere else in the sentence.

The verb tense needs to be present, yes, if we want to use pure omission (ellipsis).
If the second verb tense is not present, we either write out both verbs entirely or, using substitution, we write the "to do" verb that matches the tense we need.

IF we need a present tense verb (for the verb whose tense has shifted), then we use DO and DOES.
If we need a past tense verb (for the verb whose tense has shifted), then we use DID.

You seem confused about this part of the post:
Quote:
When verbs shift [tense] in a sentence, only some form of "to do" (almost always do, does, or did) will allow us to imply the verb in a tense that is different from the one explicitly mentioned.


DO stands in for a present tense verb.
DOES stands in for a present tense verb.
DID stands in for a past tense verb.

You wrote:
Quote:
Wrong: They still expect to live better than their parents have (Missing: "lived". Need "did (live)" instead of "have")

Not quite. Yes, "lived" is "missing."
Yes, we use did to stand in for lived because both did and lived are past tense verbs.

We are not writing did in order to say "did live."
We are writing did in order to say "lived."
We are allowed to use did when the verb changes tenses and we do not want to write the whole verb out again.
Did is past tense.

You wrote
Quote:
Wrong: She went to school before all children do (Missing: "go". Need "did (go)" instead of "do" but no "go"????)

↓↓↓
Correct: She went to school before all the other children DID.
Correct: She went to school before all the other children went to school.
DID = WENT TO SCHOOL

Both are past tense.
We are allowed to use did as shorthand for "went to school."
Just as is the case in this question, there is no verb tense shift in this example.
That fact is okay; we can still see how a "to do" verb stands in and makes a "short" version of the verb phrase "went to school."

We can use a TO DO verb when there is not a tense shift and we do not want to write out the second verb.
We can use a TO DO verb when there is a tense shift and we do not want to write out the second verb.

Finally, there are two big exceptions to the "do can stand in for almost any verb" guideline.

A TO DO verb cannot substitute for
-- TO BE verbs, or
-- HAVE, if HAVE is an auxiliary verb.
If have means own, possess, or experience, then have is a "main" verb and can be replaced with do, does, or did.

• TO DO verbs cannot substitute for TO BE verbs
Wrong: She was hungry and he did, too.
Correct: She was hungry and he was [hungry], too.

• TO DO verbs cannot substitute for HAVE when HAVE is a helping/auxiliary verb
Wrong: He had finished his wine and I did, too.
Correct: He had finished his wine and I had, too.

• TO DO verbs can substitute for HAVE when HAVE is a main verb that means own, possess, or experience.
Correct: Artem has ten pennies and Misha has ten pennies.
Correct: Artem has ten pennies and Misha does, too.
Correct: Artem has ten pennies just as Misha does.
does = has [ten pennies]

Correct (did can substitute for main verb had):
Artem had ten pennies and Misha had ten pennies.
Artem had ten pennies and Misha did, too.
Artem had ten pennies just as Misha did.
did = had [ten pennies]

I've added these exceptions to the post you cited.

I'll let the other experts you tagged take on this question.
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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Daba,
I am afraid you are getting confused between ellipsis and replacement. Both are different. Ellipsis is when you totally avoid some feature, it need not be restated and the omission is easily understood. On the contrary in replacement, you don't omit anything. You only replace the earlier verb with another verb namely do or does or did or some such form in order to the clumsiness of repetition.

Your problem with E arose because you mistook the second verb 'do' as an ellipsis.
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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dabaobao wrote:
"recognize" is missing since "recognizes" != "recognize".

I know that there's a rule that all words in ellipsis should be present somewhere else in the sentence. How can we get away without the exact verb present somewhere else?

Hi, actually recognizes is equal to recognize, from an ellipsis perspective.

For example, following sentence is correct:

My parents recognize the signs of disease better than she.

This is equivalent to:

My parents recognize the signs of disease better than she (recognizes).

So, while change in tense is generally an issue with ellipsis, change from a plural to a singularsubject (or vice-versa) is not.

Quote:
In contrast, for example (Ellipsis with sentences without DO), in this Q: https://gmatclub.com/forum/inflation-ha ... ml?kudos=1, we do need the exact verb tense.

Correct for the most part; but the question under consideration in this thread isn't really changing the tense; it is just a question of singular subject in the first part vs plural subject in the second part.

Quote:
Another example (Ellipsis with sentences with DO):
Wrong: She went to school before all children do (Missing: "go". Need "did (go)" instead of "do" but no "go"????)

This sentence is not using ellipsis. do is an actual verb that will substitute for go.

Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses this aspect of “to do” verbs. Have attached the corresponding section of the book, for your reference.
Attachments

To do Verbs.pdf [97.27 KiB]
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
While I correctly chose E, I had a hard time eliminating B.

GMATNinja, can you opine?
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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basshead wrote:
While I correctly chose E, I had a hard time eliminating B.

GMATNinja, can you opine?

Did you see @generis's post about (B)?

Let me know if that doesn't resolve your question!
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Re: Replete with bloody revenge, disasters (both deserved and undeserved) [#permalink]
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[quote="GMATNinja"]

Usage of where
How do we justify the usage of 'where' in the non-underlined portion of the sentence. As per my understanding, where is used to modify place nouns and not situations. Experts please guide.
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