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With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to

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New post 21 Feb 2020, 05:12
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VeritasKarishma egmat AjiteshArun MentorTutoring

Quote:
With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.


Quote:
(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve


Am I correct in understanding that verb-ed modifier: strained is modifying correctly network and customers?
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New post 21 Feb 2020, 08:03
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adkikani wrote:
VeritasKarishma egmat AjiteshArun MentorTutoring

Quote:
With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.


Quote:
(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve


Am I correct in understanding that verb-ed modifier: strained is modifying correctly network and customers?

Yes, adkikani, in the context of the sentence, strained is modifying both its network and (notice the conjunction in the option at hand) the patience of its customers. It would not make sense to say either of the following independently of strained:

1) With its network, the on-line service company announced...
2) With the patience of its customers, the on-line service company announced...

Note that it would make perfect sense to describe either issue independently by adding strained:

1) With its network strained, the on-line service company announced...
2) With the patience of its customers strained, the on-line service company announced...

Linking the two key nouns together with and and adding a modifier that applies equally to both is fine, both in terms of the grammar and the intended meaning of the sentence. I hope that helps. If you have further questions, feel free to ask.

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New post 24 Feb 2020, 06:27
"noun to do" is a idiomatic combination. in this pattern, noun dose not perform the action presented by "to do'. not everynoun can be used in this pattern. some of them are
effort to learn gmat
attempt to learn gmat.

if we change this pattern in to "noun doing' or 'noun that do", it is wrong because the noun can not perform the action presented by doing or "that do".

there are many meaning relation between the noun and to do. sometime the noun can be object of the "to do". " the book to read" is an example.

we do not need to know many meaning relation or grammatical relation between the noun and "to do". what we need to remember is that "noun to do" can not be "noun doing/that do". knowing this helps us find the error on sc quickly.
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New post 17 Apr 2020, 02:01
a small doubt...

isn't the use of "new" in front of "initiative" is redundant?
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New post 17 Apr 2020, 05:28
2
mdsaddamforgmat wrote:
a small doubt...

isn't the use of "new" in front of "initiative" is redundant?

Hello, mdsaddamforgmat. I know what you mean. This usage is kind of like saying first discovered. (Was X rediscovered at some later point?) Although new initiative might not strictly be necessary, neither is it unacceptable, just as first discovered is commonly used, even in official GMAT™ questions (such as this old CR question), and (D), the only choice that drops new, has other issues that are more problematic. You always have to go by what is on the screen, and if one element of an answer choice is okay but not optimal while another answer choice has more glaring issues, then go with the former.

Good luck with your studies.

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New post 17 Apr 2020, 22:33
MentorTutoring wrote:
mdsaddamforgmat wrote:
a small doubt...

isn't the use of "new" in front of "initiative" is redundant?

Hello, mdsaddamforgmat. I know what you mean. This usage is kind of like saying first discovered. (Was X rediscovered at some later point?) Although new initiative might not strictly be necessary, neither is it unacceptable, just as first discovered is commonly used, even in official GMAT™ questions (such as this old CR question), and (D), the only choice that drops new, has other issues that are more problematic. You always have to go by what is on the screen, and if one element of an answer choice is okay but not optimal while another answer choice has more glaring issues, then go with the former.

Good luck with your studies.

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thanks

I got another SC with the same confusion
https://gmatclub.com/forum/elizabeth-ba ... 36795.html

although this was much easier to eliminate based on the parallelism issue, wanted to know whether the use of 'expert' in front of 'authority' is also redundant here?
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New post 18 Apr 2020, 03:00
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mdsaddamforgmat wrote:
thanks

I got another SC with the same confusion
https://gmatclub.com/forum/elizabeth-ba ... 36795.html

although this was much easier to eliminate based on the parallelism issue, wanted to know whether the use of 'expert' in front of 'authority' is also redundant here?

Yes, expert authority is considered redundant and is not one of those accepted or common expressions. Welcome to the confusing world of English grammar and semantics, where fat and slim can, in certain circumstances, be used to convey a similar idea (when talking about chance), up and down can paint the same picture (in the expressions hold up or slow down), and expressions such as out into can appear without any qualms. I am unaware of any comprehensive list of such expressions, but for each one you encounter, you can add it to your own list of do's or do not's.

Happy studies.

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New post 18 Apr 2020, 04:34
I think it is unidiomatic to use "announce .... to do", so I did not choose C. In dictionary, announce is used as "announce that" or "announce sth to sb".

Is it because of "try" that we can use "announce ...to try to do"? Or is it okay to generally say "announce...to do sth"?

Thank you.
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New post 18 Apr 2020, 07:23
qoksar wrote:
I think it is unidiomatic to use "announce .... to do", so I did not choose C. In dictionary, announce is used as "announce that" or "announce sth to sb".

Is it because of "try" that we can use "announce ...to try to do"? Or is it okay to generally say "announce...to do sth"?

Thank you.

Hello, qoksar. We are not looking at an infinitive form to do here, but rather at the subordinating conjunction in order to, and you can use that construct to follow up just about any action you want, whether the verb is announce, think, or whatever. Consider sentence (C) and the implied meaning of to:

With its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives [in order] to try to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

This usage is perfectly acceptable, and it is not uncommon to see the subordinating conjunction in order to in its disguised to form. You may find this Cambridge Dictionary article on the topic useful.

I hope that helps address your doubts. If you have further questions, feel free to ask.

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New post 22 Apr 2020, 09:53
quote: "abhimahna"
Look at the word 'that'. It means initiatives were trying to relieve something. Hence, again Illogical.
------------------------------------------------------------


“initiatives were trying to relieve something”

that is not impossible.

BBC: 2014
"Early 2014 saw the start of an Open NTP initiative that tried to alert people running time servers to the potential for abuse, Mr Stenn told the BBC."

Forbes: 2009
"There are also two major voluntary programs: the American Heart Association's certification system of "heart healthy" foods and Smart Choices, a new labeling initiative that tries to indicate healthier fare in 19 different food and beverage categories."

haven't found a GMAT example yet.

(cant paste link as new gmatclub user)
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New post 26 Apr 2020, 09:18
egmat wrote:
cicitang wrote:
for all answers, I can only find the mistakes using "try to do", are there any other points I have missed? Please explain.



Hello,

I am not sure if your doubt still persists. Here is the explanation nonetheless. :-)

Error in Choice A:

i. The parallel elements in this choice is:

    With the patience of its customers and
    with its network strained to the breaking point

The choice fails to convey that the patience of the customers also reached the breaking point.


Errors in Choice B:

i. The parallel elements in this choice is: With the patience of

    its customers and
    with its network

The word patience associates with the network too.

ii. Use of simple present tense verb try is incorrect because the sentence is actually set in the past context as evident by the usage of the simple past tense verb announced.


Error in Choice D:

i. The parallel elements in this choice are:

    With its network and
    with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point

The choice fails to convey that its network also reached the breaking point.


Hope this helps. :-).
Thanks.
Shraddha


Hi experts / egmat,

Would love your opinion here. I have two doubts:

1) This is related to the quoted response (Parallelism error):

The way I am viewing the parallelism is as follows:

Option A:

With the patience of its customers
and
with its network

strained to the breaking point

Option B:

With

the patience of its customers
and
its network

Option C:

With
its network
and
the patience of its customers

Option D:

With its network
and
with the patience of its customers
strained to the breaking point

Option E:

With
its network
and
its customers' patience

Where am I going wrong?


2) I'm still trying to understand how the usage of the following is different from one another (I've found some varying explanations of the same, and hence the question):

Initiatives trying to relieve (as in Option A)
initiatives that try to relieve (as in Option B)
initiatives to try to relieve (as in Option C)
initiatives to try relieving (as in Option D,E)

Thank you!
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New post 27 Apr 2020, 00:11
Hi there

Thank you for posting the question ? Let me try and help you out!
The Important thing first. Let’s start by looking at the intended logical meaning. :please:

Meaning Analysis
The sentence talks about an online service company that has announced many new initiatives to achieve a certain goal. The goal is to release the network congestion because the congestion has led to problems. The problems are that there are at least four class-action lawsuits and that there are thousands of complaints from the frustrated customers. From the way the sentence is written, we can say that the company’s network is strained to the breaking point and that the customers of the company have patience. These are also cited as factors that induced the company to look towards releasing network congestion.
But do you think this meaning is logical?
The patience of customers cannot induce the company to act in the manner they did. It should actually mean that the customers no more have patience because of network congestion. Also, it is contradictory to say that the customers have patience and then there are thousands of complaints from frustrated customers. Hence this is not the intended logical meaning.

The logical meaning is--
The patience of the customers as well as the network is strained to the breaking point because of the network congestion. This problem, in turn, led to a lot of complaints. Now to avoid any further problems because of network congestion the company announced new methods.


Now lets asses each answer choice:
(A) the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve

Because of the repetition of 'with' before 'its network strained...' strained to breaking point only refers to the network. So this choice creates the meaning error as explained in the meaning analysis. Also, it is unclear if 'trying to relieve' modifies the initiatives or the company. It can refer to both because of the way it's written. But we know from the meaning that it's not the initiatives that are trying to do something, it is the company. Hence this choice is incorrect.

(B) the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve

Now, this choice again presents illogical meaning. If you read very carefully 'the patience of its customers and its network' it seems that the sentence is talking about patience of customers and patience of network. The network cannot have patience. Totally illogical. In the usage of 'that try to relive' 'that' refers to the noun 'initiatives'. Now the initiatives are not trying to do anything but the company is. Again a meaning change. Incorrect.

(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

Now, this is a perfect choice. It clearly indicates the intended logical meaning and does not make a grammatical mistake. 'strained to breaking point' now correctly refers to both. 'to try to relieve' clearly shows the purpose of announcing the initiatives by the company.

(D) its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving

Again because of the repetition of 'with' before 'the patience of its customers...... 'strained to breakpoint only refers to customer's patience. So this choice changes the meaning. Because the intention of the sentence is to present the purpose of announcing the new initiatives the usage of 'to verb' should be correct. According to the meaning, the company's purpose is to try to relieve the network congestion. Hence 'to try relieving' is not correct.

(E) its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving
It repeats the same error of 'to try relieving'.

Note: Choice B is the most popular incorrect choice, though it changed the meaning to a very large extend. Hence don't stick to pure grammar, looking at the choices from the meaning point of view can help easily. In fact most of the time, you can answer GMAT SC questions purely by meaning analysis.

I hope this helps
Thanks
Anmol :)
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New post 28 May 2020, 01:30
MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
Skywalker18 wrote:
1. In option A, With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point -- The modifier 'strained to the breaking point" applies to just "with its network" or both "With the patience of its customers" and "with its network" ?

First, let's notice that, read as if it were correctly written, that list uses "with" in two different ways.

"with the patience of its customers" would ordinarily mean something along the lines of "having the patience of its customers to make use of."

"with its network strained to the breaking point" means something along the lines of "having as an attribute its network being strained to the breaking point."

Anyway, regardless of whether the sentence makes sense, by using "with" twice, the list clearly separates the two items, because we have "with x and with y." The second "with" separates "x" from what follows the second "with." So, we don't have "with x and y strained to the breaking point." We have "with x and with y strained to the breaking point."

So, "strained to the breaking point" modifies only "network" in this version.

Using a preposition twice is actually a linguistic device that often has to be used to make clear how elements of a list are to be separated. In this case, the result of using "with" twice is an illogical separation of the elements.

Quote:
2. Since we have parallel marker "AND" in the prepositional phrase that starts with "WITH", so what is the level of parallelism we want in the 2 parts separated by the conjunction "AND" ? i.e. If the first part (preceding the parallel marker) has a prepositional phrase followed by a modifier, does the second part(following the parallel marker) SHOULD also have modifier ?
Or is it okay if both the parts that follow the preposition are nouns ?


'"Parallel" does NOT mean "exactly the same." Actually, it mostly means just "logical." So, of course, one element of a list could be composed of just a noun, while another is composed of a noun and a modifier.

Quote:
- Natalie studied ballet as a child, studies pilates now, and will study cooking someday.
** Verbs in parallel can belong to different tenses.
** But the parallel parts MUST make sense with the stem that precedes those parts.

- The angry politician, frustrated by the opposition's parliamentary tactics and screaming about the other parties unconstitutional behavior, is both a hypocrite and a narcissist. -- here both frustrated and screaming are modifiers that modify the politician, but we CANNOT replace screaming by "who screamed" because 'frustrated" will not be parallel to "who screamed".

The angry politician, who was frustrated by the opposition's parliamentary tactics and who screamed about the other parties unconstitutional behavior, is both a hypocrite and a narcissist.-- But this is correct because we have 2 who phrases in parallel ?


That sentence works.

Quote:
3. In option B, With the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point --- here the With prepositional phrase "With the patience" will apply to both its customers and its network?
But since With the patience of its network DOES NOT make sense, we can read as With its network strained to the breaking point?


Interesting question, and the answer is that you can indeed use logic to determine how to read a sentence. In this case the sentence works, because, since a network would not have patience, there is no meaning ambiguity. If the second element of the list were one that could have patience, the sentence might have two possible meanings, and therefore, might not work.


GMATNinja
Hi, experts

I agree with your explanation. "With A and With B" sounds like the company has A and B, and this is not logical. I can successfully eliminate choice A and D base on meaning. I eliminate E because the sentence uses "try doing" and people say "try doing" is wrong in GMAT. With choice B, "its customers" and "its network" seem to be parallelled so I eliminated choice B.

My FISTS question is that in choice B, it says "new initiatives that try to relieve the congestion", is it logical to modify initiatives with "that try to" ? It sounds like the initiatives will try to relieve the congestion. My SECOND question is that is "try doing" incorrect? Can I eliminate choice E based on that?


Thanks in advance
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New post 03 Jun 2020, 11:39
EMPOWERgmatVerbal wrote:
Hello Everyone!

Let's take a look at this question, and narrow down the options quickly to find the correct answer! To get started, here is the original sentence with any major differences between each option highlighted in orange:

With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

(A) the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve
(B) the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve
(D) its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving
(E) its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving

After a quick glance over each option, only 2 major differences appear between each option:

1. The order of items in the beginning: customers + network / network + customers
2. Their endings: trying to relieve / that try to relieve / to try to relieve / to try relieving


#1 on our list will eliminate the most options quickly (either 2 or 3), so let's start there. Let's look at what each sentence means when we switch around the order of the customers and network:

With the patience of the customers and its network strained to the breaking point = the patience of the customers and the patience of its network

This is the WRONG option because it says that the patience of BOTH the customers and the network is strained, which doesn't make sense. The network is strained, but doesn't have the ability to be patient - it's not a person!

With its network and the patience of the customers strained to the breaking point = the network is strained and the patience of the customers is strained

This is the CORRECT option because it puts the emphasis on BOTH the network and the customers being strained, which is logical and true!

This means we can eliminate options A & B right away because they create an illogical parallel statement.

Now that we're left with only 3 options, let's tackle #2 on the list: their endings. For this, we need to know the difference between "to try to" and "try doing" something:

to try to do something = to put in an effort to do something you already know can be successful / "I want to try to learn the piano this year."
try doing something = to do something as an experiment; you're not sure it will be successful / "Try adding more salt to your cookie batter."

For this sentence, it makes the most sense to say that they company created initiative to try to relieve congestion because they know it's possible to do, but they just need to put in the effort. So let's see how each answer stacks up:

(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

This option is CORRECT because the beginning of the phrase is in the correct order to make sense. It also uses the correct "to try to," which conveys the correct meaning that the company has to put in an effort to fix the problem they know can be fixed.

(D) its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving

This option is INCORRECT because it uses the phrase "to try relieving," which suggests that the company isn't sure their initiatives will be possible or even work. It's much stronger to say "to try to" do something because it shows that success is definitely possible.

(E) its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving

This option is INCORRECT for a couple reasons. First, it's not necessary to use the apostrophe in "customers'" because it's not being followed by a plural word (for example "customers' chairs" would be okay). It also uses the incorrect "to try relieving" which conveys the wrong meaning.

There you have it - option C is the correct answer!


Don't study for the GMAT. Train for it.



Great Analysis! Helped me. Thanks
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New post 12 Jun 2020, 19:40
mikemcgarry wrote:
muditagrawal wrote:
hellosanthosh2k2 wrote:
Hi Mike,

I have one question. Preposition + noun + participle is not preferred in GMAT as too much of action jammed into single modifier.

But each option for this question has this "Preposition + noun + participle" - "With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point" modifier - is this correct?

Please help.

Thanks


Hi Mike
In your article written about the usage of above-mentioned sort of construction(With + Noun +Participle)the link for which I've shared, You've described 02 cases when these constructions would work. Link: https://magoosh.com/gmat/2015/with-noun ... orrection/
i Case I: action by a different agent, where "With + Noun +Participle" is always wrong as per the article.
II Case II: additional description: where the " With + Noun +Participle" phrase makes sense with the subject of the sentence and provides an additional description about it and the usage is correct.

However, I fail to see the usage of "With + Noun +Participle" in the problem of this thread falling into any of these categories. Kindly explain how the expression " With + Noun +Participle " makse sense with the clause here.
Thanks

Dear muditagrawal & hellosanthosh2k2,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Yes, this is a good blog to cite:
with + [noun] + [participle] on GMAT Sentence Correction

Notice that the present participle is inherently active, so "with" + [noun] + [present participle] can sound like an action, and students may be tempted to use this as place to put action in a sentence. All the examples discussed in that blog involve present participles.

The past participle is inherently passive, so the "with" + [noun] + [past participle] structure is less likely to be construed as an action. Here, there is not really an action happening in the "with" clause, because the participle is a passive participle. This mitigates against classifying this as a Case I example. It's very hard to think of examples of the the "with" + [noun] + [past participle] structure that would be wrong. It's fine here.

Also--and this is something I discuss in that blog in the "One Test" section--does the fundamental logic of "with" obtain in this situation? Is the online company "with its network"? Yes, in some sense. Is the only company "with its customers"? Yes, in some sense. Is the only company "with the patience of its customers"? It sounds awfully odd to state it this way, but yes, theoretically, the company could be accompanies by the moral virtues of its customers. Fundamentally, there is nothing illogical about the use of the word "with."

Thus, this sentence is perfectly fine, and version (C) is the best version of it.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)


mikemcgarry

I read article and tried to apply 'test ' to check whether options make sense.However,i am not convinced how then correct answer choice is correct given Test strategy

I DROPPED THE PARTICIPLE TO CHECK THE SAME: With the patience of its customers, online company announce: How does it make sense. don't find any logical connection as i can find in this example i.e " With chloroplasts, the euglena can manufacture..."

Please explain if i am not applying Test in a correct way in the official answer choice
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New post 19 Jun 2020, 15:54
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GMATNinja
Hi, experts

I agree with your explanation. "With A and With B" sounds like the company has A and B, and this is not logical. I can successfully eliminate choice A and D base on meaning. I eliminate E because the sentence uses "try doing" and people say "try doing" is wrong in GMAT. With choice B, "its customers" and "its network" seem to be parallelled so I eliminated choice B.

My FISTS question is that in choice B, it says "new initiatives that try to relieve the congestion", is it logical to modify initiatives with "that try to" ? It sounds like the initiatives will try to relieve the congestion. My SECOND question is that is "try doing" incorrect? Can I eliminate choice E based on that?


Thanks in advance
Jack

Good question! I wouldn't say that "try doing" is inherently wrong, but the phrase seems to have a slightly different meaning than "try to do."

For example: "Tim tried cooking pasta for his family," makes it sounds as though Tim actually cooked the pasta. But the phrase "Tim tried to cook pasta for his family" kind of makes it sound as though the cooking were aspirational: Tim made an attempt to cook, but the action wasn't necessarily completed.

In this SC question, I suppose you could make the case that because the company has merely announced the initiatives, it hasn't enacted them, and so the aspirational form of "to try to relieve" is better than "to try relieving," but that feels like an awfully subtle distinction, so I'd prefer a more concrete issue to eliminate (E).

In (E), we get the phrase, "With its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point." The first time I read that, because "its network" and "its customers'" both precede "patience," I interpreted it to mean that we were talking about both the network's patience and the customer's patience. That doesn't make any sense. If you read it again, yeah, you can figure out that it's just the customer's patience and the network itself that are strained (after all, we have "network", not "network's"), but it takes some work to get there, and it's initially confusing.

Contrast that option with the opening phrase in (C) "With its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point." Now, because "patience" comes before "its customers," it's crystal clear that we're talking about two separate entities: 1) the network itself and 2) the patience of the customers.

So while there's no concrete rule to rely on here, (C) is a clearer, more logical construction than (E), and therefore better.

I hope that helps!
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Re: With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to  [#permalink]

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New post 20 Jul 2020, 00:20
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Hi,
I am still not convinced why to try to relieve is preferred over to try relieving?
Unable to decide between option C and E.
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Re: With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to   [#permalink] 20 Jul 2020, 00:20

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