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With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to th

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Re: With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to th [#permalink]

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New post 30 Oct 2017, 16:18
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muditagrawal wrote:
hellosanthosh2k2 wrote:
Hi Mike,

I have one question. Preposition + noun + participle is not preferred in GMAT as too much of action jammed into single modifier.

But each option for this question has this "Preposition + noun + participle" - "With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point" modifier - is this correct?

Please help.

Thanks


Hi Mike
In your article written about the usage of above-mentioned sort of construction(With + Noun +Participle)the link for which I've shared, You've described 02 cases when these constructions would work. Link: https://magoosh.com/gmat/2015/with-noun ... orrection/
i Case I: action by a different agent, where "With + Noun +Participle" is always wrong as per the article.
II Case II: additional description: where the " With + Noun +Participle" phrase makes sense with the subject of the sentence and provides an additional description about it and the usage is correct.

However, I fail to see the usage of "With + Noun +Participle" in the problem of this thread falling into any of these categories. Kindly explain how the expression " With + Noun +Participle " makse sense with the clause here.
Thanks

Dear muditagrawal & hellosanthosh2k2,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Yes, this is a good blog to cite:
with + [noun] + [participle] on GMAT Sentence Correction

Notice that the present participle is inherently active, so "with" + [noun] + [present participle] can sound like an action, and students may be tempted to use this as place to put action in a sentence. All the examples discussed in that blog involve present participles.

The past participle is inherently passive, so the "with" + [noun] + [past participle] structure is less likely to be construed as an action. Here, there is not really an action happening in the "with" clause, because the participle is a passive participle. This mitigates against classifying this as a Case I example. It's very hard to think of examples of the the "with" + [noun] + [past participle] structure that would be wrong. It's fine here.

Also--and this is something I discuss in that blog in the "One Test" section--does the fundamental logic of "with" obtain in this situation? Is the online company "with its network"? Yes, in some sense. Is the only company "with its customers"? Yes, in some sense. Is the only company "with the patience of its customers"? It sounds awfully odd to state it this way, but yes, theoretically, the company could be accompanies by the moral virtues of its customers. Fundamentally, there is nothing illogical about the use of the word "with."

Thus, this sentence is perfectly fine, and version (C) is the best version of it.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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OG 18 782 --With the patience of its customers [#permalink]

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New post 20 Dec 2017, 10:27
With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

A. the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the online service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve
B. the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
C. its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve
D. its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving
E. its network and its customers' patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving

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Re: With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to th [#permalink]

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New post 20 Dec 2017, 21:47
AbdurRakib wrote:
The Official Guide for GMAT Review 2018
Practice Question
Sentence Correction
Question No.: 782

With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

(A) the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve

(B) the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve

(C) its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

(D) its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving

(E) its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving


for this problem, we need to understand the pattern
noun+to do

this partern is hard to learn. for some noun,not all noun, we haver to use "noun+ to do" . this is an idiom applicable to some nouns, not all noun.

we have to remember those nouns when reading the text. the idiom mean that for those noun " noun+doing" is incorrect.

this concept looks simple but it is not simple.

we need to know that there are some meaniing relations between noun and "to do". some of them,
- adverb of "to do" is the noun
- appositive of "noun" is "to do". our case, "to try" is appositive of "initiative". "to try" is similar to
initiative, the measure , you do. in this case, "to try" is similar to "measure".
-to do is object of noun. the matter to solve is hard.

in these meaning relation. noun DOSE NOT do the action of " to do" as in the case with choice D and E.


we do not need to remember those meaning relations. we need to remember that "noun+ to do" is idiom applicable to some, but not all, noun and that the meaing relation is not that noun perform the action of "to do".

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Re: With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to th [#permalink]

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New post 06 Jan 2018, 03:08
mikemcgarry wrote:
AbdurRakib wrote:
With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve the congestion that has led to at least four class-action lawsuits and thousands of complaints from frustrated customers.

A. the patience of its customers and with its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives trying to relieve
B. the patience of its customers and its network strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
C. its network and the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve
D. its network and with the patience of its customers strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of initiatives to try relieving
E. its network and its customers’ patience strained to the breaking point, the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try relieving

Dear AbdurRakib

I'm happy to respond. :-)

I began focusing on the split at the end. The verb "try" most naturally takes the infinitive; "try" + [gerund] sounds casual. Also, the infinitive of purpose sounds more natural than a participle or a "that" clause. Therefore, (C) seems like the best choice.

Also, notice that we don't have to repeat the word "with," so (A) & (D) are out.

The phrase "its customers’ patience" in (E) is very awkward.

Rhetorically, when we have a preposition and then two elements, one long and one short, it often makes more sense to have the shorter one first so that we can see the relationship that both elements have to the preposition. Thus:
With its network and the patience of its customers = more preferable
With the patience of its customers and its network = less preferable

All of these work together to make (C) the best answer.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)



Hello Mike!



Would you be so kind as to explain me why the clause starting with "that" in choice B is wrong?

What I specifically mean is that, being supposed that the company didn´t try to relieve the congestion through announcing those initiatives BUT that, in fact, those initiatives were the ones directed to try to relieve such congestion, I don´t understand why the "that" as a vital-noun modifier is wrong here.



Thanks for your time and your attention!
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Rooigle

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New post 08 Jan 2018, 10:22
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RooIgle wrote:
Hello Mike!

Would you be so kind as to explain me why the clause starting with "that" in choice B is wrong?

What I specifically mean is that, being supposed that the company didn´t try to relieve the congestion through announcing those initiatives BUT that, in fact, those initiatives were the ones directed to try to relieve such congestion, I don´t understand why the "that" as a vital-noun modifier is wrong here.

Thanks for your time and your attention!

Dear RooIgle,

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Think about it this way: who is doing the "trying"?

Of course, the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying."

With this in mind, look at the answer choices.
(B) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
(C) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

Choice (C), in using the infinitive of purpose, correctly suggests that the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying." By contrast, the "that" clause in (B) illogically suggests that the "series of new initiatives" is doing the "trying."

Does this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to th [#permalink]

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New post 08 Jan 2018, 13:03
mikemcgarry wrote:

I'm happy to respond. :-)

Think about it this way: who is doing the "trying"?

Of course, the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying."

With this in mind, look at the answer choices.
(B) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives that try to relieve
(C) . . . the on-line service company announced a series of new initiatives to try to relieve

Choice (C), in using the infinitive of purpose, correctly suggests that the "the on-line service company" is doing the "trying." By contrast, the "that" clause in (B) illogically suggests that the "series of new initiatives" is doing the "trying."

Does this make sense?
Mike :-)



Seeing it that way it does start making sense to me.

Such action verbs as "try" have to correspond to an active subject. For example, the "that" would be correct if the sentence were "... a series of new initiatives that are oriented ..." and this is correct because the "initiatives" are "allowed" to be something but, as you well said, they cannot try anything because they are not able to carry out any actions in general.


Thanks for your response Mike. Very insightful! I´ll certainly apply it the next time :-)


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Re: With the patience of its customers and with its network strained to th   [#permalink] 08 Jan 2018, 13:03

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